Virtua Fighter 3(Shenmue) on Sega Saturn

Discussion in 'Unreleased Games Discussion' started by chanchai, Sep 6, 2012.

  1. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

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    I would have included Anarchy In The Nippon to my earlier list, but I don't think it's any more visually impressive than Virtua Fighter 2 so I didn't bother. Also, there's no doubt the reduced frame rate of D-Xhird allows more clock cycles for the additional light sourcing, Gouraud shading, polygonal ring surrounds and sprite based transparency effects, but it's still a remarkable looking game despite running at "just" 30 frames per second. After all, it's not as if a title like Burning Rangers would have been possible at a faster speed when you consider Sonic Team's unique procedural solution for rendering its translucencies.
     
  2. chanchai

    chanchai Rising Member

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    i agree....d-xhird like other toshinden games dosn't need 60 frames. the stages like the samurai stage show that takarashi sumo stage with round battleground would have been possible..
    i still am not convinced that any other fighting game looks better then vf2. vf2 weakness is its background implementation. kages grainy ring looks ugly.....the play field movement is very unrealistic and bad. But the fighters and their textures look awesome....

    Anarchy is none the less a great achievement for such a low budget title and its little development team....
     
  3. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

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    Anarchy In The Nippon may have been produced on less of a budget than AM2's work, but development was helped massively by the assistance of seasoned veterans such as Shinjuku Jacky, Ikebukuro Sarah and BunBunMaru, the latter even giving some help with programming as he'd been involved behind the scenes with testing on the Virtua Fighter series.

    As for no other Saturn game looking better than VF2, I'm still convinced that Last Bronx may be an improvement with its superior background scrolling elements, plus Virtua Fighter Kids always seemed to have more impressive parallax layers - maybe I'm just being thrown off by the bright colours? Either way, D-Xhird and Savaki are both excellent third party efforts.
     
  4. chanchai

    chanchai Rising Member

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    i agree...
    sadly when all comes together..all these technical improvements......we maybe never know what VF3 would have looked like. imagine D-xhird/Last bronx stage geometry...with improved VF2/Last Bronx fighters...and smartly redesigned VF3 stages.....how would that have looked and played.....what new ideas had AM2 for this difficult port......if VF3 was finished....was it a rushed attempt.....shenmue needed also a lot of AM2 personnel ...i would die to know
     
  5. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

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    Clearly a lot of the hard work for Shenmue was already completed, including the graphics engine, character design and location building. The prototype video may only be highlights from the most finished sections, but it seems the game was only lacking the more open areas, music and voice acting - what other reason could there be for these elements not featuring in the footage released?

    As for Virtua Fighter 3, I'm most curious to see the supposedly improved final second revision, though of course for curiosity's sake I'd be interested to play the first version as well, since it's claimed to have been more of an evolution from Fighters Megamix as opposed to being a revolution after Virtua Fighter 2 and the other similar quality titles being produced on the Saturn by third parties especially.
     
  6. Druidic teacher

    Druidic teacher Officer at Arms

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  7. chanchai

    chanchai Rising Member

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    thats the question. saturn was dying(outside japan), there wasn't much sense on developing another high budget title...Vf3 could have received significantly less support and manpower then vf2.
    seeing the implementation of only one vf3 stage in megamix vs. the two sonic fighter stages maybe hints something....
    still sega fucked it up.....vf2 sold over 1.7 mio in japan. saturn was leading till ff7 came. the people deserved a port. They dissapointed a lot of people there...waiting so long for their VF3 port. DC didn't sell well in Japan and SCalibur stole VF3 the show. VF3 was quite a weak port done by Genki.....it didn't lived up to AM2 name.

    i like d-xhird stages more then in FV...there is animation.....samuari stage with flowing river...from the ring (play field) over the hill(polygons). or the moving tents.....the cages look better.......only playfield implementation in the background looks better in fv2......maybe low res fighters in d xhird look a little bit better. FV is 60 frames....still the stages haven't got any moving objects(starting moving plane(its in there in megamix). no moving traffic ....trucks
    don't get me wrong still a great port exept the horrible low res fighters in front of the high res background.....probably the price you have to pay for the destruction of the armor
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2013
  8. Druidic teacher

    Druidic teacher Officer at Arms

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  9. chanchai

    chanchai Rising Member

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    It was the only way....
    Wolf VF3 stages was the easiest to port...because its tekken like infinite....
    Other stages maybe weren't ported because they where more complex...
    megamix hat to kind of stages....fv stages with cages...and vf....stages more tekken like...because infinite.....yeah the game was some sort of rushed...the vf stages(vf2 stages should have ring out)
    still the vf3 stage has beautiful texture work...maybe it hints vf3 texture quality work in the background department...some vas stages (kage, lion) where quite lousy.
    fighting vipers like stages or the daytona virtua cop sonic stages look very good....or were improved
     
  10. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

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    All polygonal objects in Fighting Vipers (not just characters) are rendered at half the resolution of sprite-based elements, which was necessary to allow the inclusion of Gouraud shading and real time light sourcing - both features lacking in Virtua Fighter 2.
     
  11. chanchai

    chanchai Rising Member

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    you're right.....stupid idea.....include gouraud shading for two or three stages with lightning....

    saturn software based gouraud shading always produced crapy results. better idea no such shading and doing brilliant hand drawn texture work...by hand!
    Sometimes the easier and most primitive techniques are the best....just putting GS inside is lazy....good thing they left this out in last bronx
     
  12. chanchai

    chanchai Rising Member

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    http://forums.hidden-palace.org/viewtopic.php?t=2801

    interesting what bakaneiro hast to say....

    is it really that crazy...that people who saw the game can't say a word about this 15 year old never released product seems...crazy to me...
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2013
  13. Youloute

    Youloute Robust Member

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    I don't think Sam Pettus has anything to do with this update. He has probably just allowed David Munoz to use his work as a basis for other research.


    Also, for those who are trying to follow the whole Virtua Fighter 3 discussion on this forum, you can find info here and there (quoted below since it's pretty short):

     
  14. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

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    How nice of bakaneiro to quote my old, outdated posts on the subject of Saturn VF3... and posts from this very forum, too!
     
  15. Druidic teacher

    Druidic teacher Officer at Arms

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  16. la-li-lu-le-lo

    la-li-lu-le-lo ラリルレロ

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    My guess is that Sega wants to keep the possibility open for doing a rerelease of VF3 on modern consoles, and they don't want to do anything to undermine a more accurate port. But I agree, it doesn't make much sense. If they could show Saturn footage of Shenmue, certainly they could do the same with VF3.

    You also have to consider that the number of people who would actually be interested in seeing this is probably relatively small, so there's not much of a benefit to Sega.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2013
  17. Yakumo

    Yakumo Pillar of the Community *****

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    As I've said a million times, my brother who did work in the games industry for 10 years or so still claims he saw the aVF3 Aio rolling demo running on a Saturn at the ETC show behind closed doors. he demo just had Aio dancing about on a plain blue background. No floor, no walls. Just the polygon character. He says it looked mighty impressive.
     
  18. anaho

    anaho Active Member

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    Whoever came up with that fairy-tale from above sure was a serious pot-head. Why does such sort of crazy misinformation even get spread? Just a little breakdown so that it is hopefully never seen again:

    1.) Yu Suzuki needs an approval for projects from Sega to start as such things cost money. The whole story of pitching it to SEGA and continue working on it after being rejected, surely makes no sense. Who paid the programmers? He himself? Wasn´t he assinged to other projects? What would his superiors reaction be if they found out that other projects stall, because he secretively decided to continue work on a dead project that is using a considerable amount of man power....
    2.) As if a renowned programmer and gaming pioneer really bothered what people or journalists said about the competitors hardware. That is fanboy level. As a matter of fact, had he and his team been working on other systems at that time, I am pretty sure the results would have even been better. The Saturns hardware was never a contributing factor as to why his games looked great.
    3.) Using the audio processor...... Yeah, right. What he means is the SCU DSP. Not only was that thing hardly any improvement over a SH-2, but the likelihood of the worlds-best programmers not reading the tech docs since 1994 is very likely-NOT.
    4.) 500000/30 equals 16666 polygons per frame. Ten times the polycount of VF2 or Dead or Alive. On the same hardware.... No way. Apart from that, I highly doubt that amount would even fit in the framebuffer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  19. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

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    There are at least two other sources out there who claim to have seen the exact same thing, along with the completed version of Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 (Revision 2) at the 1998 ECTS and Tokyo Game Show in strict "behind closed doors" conditions. For the record, it was not believed to have been shown at E3 that year or any of the New Challenge conferences. There's a possibility the Aoi character movement tech demo first made an appearance at the Power Up show in November '96, but most of the media's attention was on the announcement of Fighters Megamix and the first preliminary Saturn footage of Last Bronx - I didn't even know about Yu Suzuki revealing the Virtua AD* project at this event until years later when I accidentally found a section on the old official AM2 website during a search via the Wayback Machine for a teaser image that was uploaded prior to the unveiling of VF3!

    *Virtua AD was the earliest working title for Virtua Fighter RPG, later known as Akira's Quest, Project Berkeley then finally Shenmue. Back when this was still intended to be a spin-off from the VF series, there were also plans for another side story featuring the Bryant siblings that was codenamed Chicago. Even less is known about this one, though it was briefly mentioned in an interview around 2001 and described as being more action based than Shenmue.

    P.S. Much of the funding for Saturn VF3 (and Sonic The Fighters, too) was taken out of the overall budget for Shenmue. Yu Suzuki personally suggested Genki to handle the Dreamcast conversion because many of its staff were former AM2 members he trusted, plus outsourcing meant he could focus more resources on a game that had already been in development by that point for nearly four years. Preliminary research into Shenmue dates back to 1993 and the first Virtua Fighter, though actual Saturn work only took place between 1995 and 1997. From the official confirmation his team would be taking full responsibility of Saturn VF3 in November '96 and its first rejection in July '98, this was his main priority. Shenmue only went into full production on the Dreamcast later in the year, which may explain why until then only pre-rendered sequences were featured on the bonus disc that came with initially printed copies of VF3tb.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  20. Druidic teacher

    Druidic teacher Officer at Arms

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