Virtua Fighter 3(Shenmue) on Sega Saturn

Discussion in 'Unreleased Games Discussion' started by chanchai, Sep 6, 2012.

  1. speedyink

    speedyink Site Supporter 2016

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2015
    Messages:
    1,432
    Likes Received:
    629
    Isn't this basically like the Dreamcast version? Sure there are open town sections, but all the cut scenes, and lot of the places in the games look carefully crafted to look as good as they could manage for the time. Judging from the Saturn trailer they both have a similar design process. It would have been interesting to see what the more open areas would have looked like on the Saturn though, a city populated with people would have been tough to pull off.
     
    Keiji Dragon likes this.
  2. VirtuaIceMan

    VirtuaIceMan Rapidly Rising Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Messages:
    85
    Likes Received:
    16
    Eurogamer asked Yu Suzuki about it:

    "At this point, Suzuki's assistant leans over to let me know that I have one more question. With the interview coming to an end I had to ask the one thing I've been wondering about for decades - whatever became of the rumored port of Virtua Fighter 3 for Sega Saturn? Do you remember anything?

    Suzuki leans back in his chair, closes his eyes for a second before responding with a very simple "No I don't". He sat back up and continued "I honestly don't remember. I'm the type of guy that jumps into new projects one-hundred percent and that was a long time ago so I really don't remember anything about it." And thus that particular mystery continues."

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-09-08-sitting-down-with-shenmue-3-and-yu-suzuki
     
    Keiji Dragon and Anthaemia. like this.
  3. l_oliveira

    l_oliveira Officer at Arms

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2007
    Messages:
    3,889
    Likes Received:
    249
    At that time SEGA was bleeding money and I bet the guy had his boss on his neck. I'd guess that's the reaction of a man who doesn't want to remember (and have very good reasons to not). Also in their culture talking of stuff that went wrong at work is frowned upon. I think maybe it's best let that subject rest. lol
     
  4. Bramsworth

    Bramsworth Well Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,753
    Likes Received:
    374
    Kind of disappointing the interviewer didn't bother asking more about Saturn Shenmue. Not the first time I've heard about Japanese developers not wanting to talk about troubled development projects from the past though.
     
    Anthaemia. likes this.
  5. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2004
    Messages:
    1,654
    Likes Received:
    221
    Yu Suzuki previously spoke at length to Adam Doree from Kikizo about Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 during an interview (ironically around the time Shenmue III was supposedly close to being put into full development, which didn't end up happening until a few years later), but requested any mention of this conversion be edited out of the resulting article. For someone who is so actively involved with each new project, I just know that he remembers specific details when it comes to Saturn VF3. His silence is likely a combination of Japanese customs, as already mentioned, and remaining non disclosure agreements... I've heard in the past that Sega's normally lasted for 20 years, which may explain why Jon Burton of Traveller's Tales recently uploaded Sonic R prototype footage onto his Youtube channel. As for Shenmue in its 32-bit form, I'd naturally love to see more of this, if only to try and figure out some of the other inventive ways AM2 was trying to get around their chosen platform's hardware limitations. Indeed, while they've already done two specials on the Shenmue series to date, it would be great to have Digital Foundry take a closer look at the Saturn prototype, since Richard Leadbetter probably has a better idea than most of just how such impressive scenes were achieved in real time. For example, I'd already noticed the clever use of VDP2 for indoor areas, which included "baking" furniture into the floor layer and relying on scripted camera angles to hide this approach. If you want further proof of how reluctant Japanese developers are to discuss their failures in any great detail, just try finding a substantial comment from Hideki Kamiya regarding the original scenario for BioHazard/Resident Evil 2 - I suspect he'd very much prefer for this to be left firmly in the past, yet fans and journalists alike continue requesting new information to help fill blanks in our collective knowledge!
     
    Keiji Dragon likes this.
  6. justsomeoneelse84

    justsomeoneelse84 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    History-of-Virtua-Fighter-3.jpg

    This screenshot has been bothering me for a while...

    Can someone do an analysis of it?
     
  7. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2004
    Messages:
    1,654
    Likes Received:
    221
    I can't remember if that's from MAME or Supermodel, but what you've uploaded is a screenshot of arcade Virtua Fighter 3 in an early state of emulation. The accuracy of Supermodel has since improved massively, though I've not checked MAME progress in a few years...
     
    Keiji Dragon likes this.
  8. justsomeoneelse84

    justsomeoneelse84 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you.

    I`ve found this on Sega-16, i think. I`ve read somewhere online, from a YouTube user, that screenshots of the Saturn version might have been featured in a magasine article. I dont know anything else about it...

    There`s a bunch of weird stuff i`ve read about this game. Maybe i should do a compilation of all the info i have of it...
     
  9. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2004
    Messages:
    1,654
    Likes Received:
    221
    There was a rumour that screenshots of Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 had been printed in a Japanese magazine just before its official cancellation, and even though I've spent years tracking down everything I can get my hands on from this period to see if that was the case, the only images I've managed to find so far were from Dreamcast prototype builds that were earlier than the version unveiled at an event following the New Challenge conference in late 1998. I might upload these if anyone wants them so badly...

    P.S. I also have several low resolution pictures of VF3 from when this was still under development for the Model 2 board due to its successor being heavily delayed as a result of problems at Lockheed Martin with completing the Real3D Pro-1000 chipset. At this early stage in production, the game more closely resembled Fighting Vipers, only with stage undulation already featured.
     
  10. justsomeoneelse84

    justsomeoneelse84 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Anything you could upload is interesting to me. Go ahead...
     
  11. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2004
    Messages:
    1,654
    Likes Received:
    221
    The first image is a set of pictures from the Model 2 prototype, while the second includes a few of the better screenshots from a folder I have of the early Dreamcast builds that show various differences to the stages (usually missing elements surrounding the actual fight areas, though the last has Akira with some missing textures in his neck). Enjoy!
     

    Attached Files:

    sayin999 likes this.
  12. justsomeoneelse84

    justsomeoneelse84 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since we`re at this, there`s a post on SegaSaturno, which i think is interesting...

    Someone I know from another forum has acquired SGL OS 3.2, with all the development tools. 3.2 was the final Saturn dev kit ever made. The following are all his words. I am posting this because a couple of you might find it interesting,

    Did you know that SGL OS 3.0 supported real-time bump mapping and anti-aliasing effects? These were previosuly thought impossible on the Saturn (and most other hardware of the time, for that matter) so why would Sega implement such features if developers were not going to be using them? The desert stage from Fighters Megamix was exactly how it would have looked in Saturn VF3, exect that a bump-mapping effect was applied to the floor surface to give it the same undulation as seen in the arcade version of the game.

    Also, SGL 3.2 could produce in excess of 1,000,000 polygons per second - this is almost double the Saturn's normal geometry maximum and around the same level as the Model 3 arcade board! The technique known as AVR processing was definitely built into this software, but since I don't have a Saturn development system then I can't investigate this any further for now. The later builds of SGL (anything about 2.1, to be precise) could handle curved polygons in real-time game environments - this was being used as the base for STi's "Sphere Renderer" engine which would have powered Sonic X-Treme and the Sonic 3D Pool special stage collection.


    A document included with SGL OS 3.2 compares the potential performance of the Saturn to Model 3, and guess which system comes out on top? The video footage of Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 and Shenmue Saturn Version is definitely real, and it's now even more of a shame that these games were not released. Besides, the PSX conversion of Tekken 3 was anything but perfect while Saturn VF3 would have not only matched but perhaps even exceeded the arcade game on which it was based - if released in 1998 (as planned) then this title would have kept the console going for at least a year on its technical achievements alone!!
    ---
    Anyway, I had never even used a Saturn programming tool until SGL OS 3.2 and it's no surprise that many developers were complaining about how Assembler or C++ were so difficult to use - Sega's own programs are incredibly easy in comparison (it's just a shame that very few people ever got to work with them)!


    Along with Sonic X-Treme and Saturn Virtua Fighter 3, there are also files relating to other games. I have even managed to find models of the Sega Rally cars, the Feisar vehicle from WipeOut 2097 and even Solo Wing Dragon as seen in Panzer Dragoon Saga! These titles were obviously considered good enough by Sega to have been included as samples of the Saturn's potention on their official development software discs.
    --
    I remember an interview with Rob Harris of STi (printed in SSM #9) in which he said that Sonic X-Treme was not being developed using SGL, but this was during the game's earlier stages when it was still being produced with the BUG! engine. There was a screenshot of the very same area that is in the SGL OS 3.2 sampler (a picture of Sonic fighting against Fang if I recall correctly), so if I can find a copy of this picture and compare the Sonic model (this was 3D polygons for the boss stages and 2D sprites for the rest of the game) to what I have then I can prove that STi were indeed making their final Sphere Renderer version of Sonic X-Treme with SGL and not something else as thought before!


    The model of Akira I have found has a full VF3 command list which I checked against Fighters Megamix, and the background files are definitely not the same as the basic wireframe grid that was used on the Aoi tech demo shown on UK television all those years ago - this is either from the completed game (first version) or an incomplete test copy.

    ...
     
  13. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2004
    Messages:
    1,654
    Likes Received:
    221
    I'm actually the person responsible for writing that original message, and so much of it desperately needs updating. Sadly, I don't have the time these days to produce a more definitive article, plus I handed over the majority of what remains from my research to someone else a while back (large portions were lost following a "cryptowall" type attack a while ago). Hopefully they'll be able to a far better job than I ever could at this point... assuming their own project is still happening, of course!
     
  14. justsomeoneelse84

    justsomeoneelse84 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?175517-Virtua-Fighter-3-Saturn
    I`ve seen more lenghty posts in there. Could they be yours as well?

    There`s also, on this site, a post from someone who might have seen a build of that version. Do you know anything about it?
    https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/virtua-fighter-3-on-saturn-how-was-it.7620/

    I`ve also read somewhere that the Saturn version might have reduced variable stage elements (Such as the water no longer affecting the fighters) and that Taka-Arashi, the sumo wrestler, might have been cut from that version due to some technical limitations. Any hindsight on that would be appreciated...

    Outside of that, if you know anything else about this port... Consider me interested. I`d love to learn more about it...
     
  15. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2004
    Messages:
    1,654
    Likes Received:
    221
    Quite a few of those posts are copied from some of my old messages on this forum, though I didn't share them (or give permission for others to pass them off as their own writing). However, what has been interesting is reading back through these years after the fact... In one, I mentioned that early copies of Resident Evil 2 from before development was restarted were in the hands of known collectors, and it's amazing to think we all now have access to this mythical prototype. Also, it should be noted that Yu Suzuki recently confirmed the Saturn version of Shenmue was just 30% complete when production switched over to the Dreamcast - so much for claims this was only lacking voice files and had been very close to release, with some out there even supposedly owning playable builds of it!

    P.S. Only the later of the two finished versions of Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 is believed to have contained undulating levels, and Taka was removed from VF4 along with the initial revisions of VF5 because AM2 didn't want to rework the physics engines for these to accommodate a character players rarely used.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
    Getta Robo likes this.
  16. justsomeoneelse84

    justsomeoneelse84 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Alright, that will be it for now. Thanks for the infos and screenshots. Those proto-VF3 ones are pretty cool. In the meanwhile, it`s back to the arcade and Dreamcast version for me...
     
  17. americandad

    americandad Familiar Face

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    277
    I don't see how 30% completion is an obstacle for playable builds? Especially when considering the fact that Shenmue was not finnished on the Dreamcast either.
     
  18. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2004
    Messages:
    1,654
    Likes Received:
    221
    Like many fans, I was hoping we'd one day be able to play Shenmue in its Saturn form straight through from start to finish, only now it seems as if the project was more like the aforementioned Resident Evil 2 prototype, which I've seen quoted as being a similarly 40% complete - sure, it's possible to get a feel for Capcom's intention by room jumping with the debug tools, but there are still large portions of the final game's planned content missing. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that Shenmue video wasn't edited to remove any significant later spoilers, after all, instead representing the best of development that was still in such an early state. Note that we don't see any open environments where Ryo interacts with multiple NPCs, even though I can't imagine the Shenmue experience without this key feature (and yes, I'm aware that at this stage in production he was probably yet to be changed from being known as Akira, since the Virtua Fighter concept wasn't supposedly dropped until the move to Dreamcast).
     
    Getta Robo likes this.

Share This Page