Discussion in 'Unreleased Games Discussion' started by Barc0de, Jul 16, 2006.
The scene that could aford a saturn and get unreleased games.
I've been openly critical of Anthemia in this thread, but honestly, I couldn't give a fuck whether he had a Saturn when he was in school.
I totally agree.
I went and played Virtua Fighter 3 at Gameworks (Sega owned arcade) and it didn't look any better than the Dreamcast version. My TV is bigger than their aracde unit also, but it is fun to destroy people at the arcade after getting a lot of practice at home with the Dreamcast arcade stick.
I'm really determined NOT to trigger a flame war here, but the fact is that I've been receiving a lot of negativity as a direct result of this thread and it's about time something was done about it!
Yes, anyone with a basic mathematical capacity can deduce that I was still in school when Virtua Fighter 3 was a contemporary release, and while I can't be sure of the exact date I definitely had a Saturn early enough to experience its first games when they were still fresh on the shelves. Besides, most people didn't even know when the Saturn properly launched due to Sega's botched efforts! Why any of this needs to be brought up now is lost on me, as I'm not really the kind to resort to such mud-slinging.
Anyway, without wanting to repeat myself, it seems I may just have to. The fact is that back then I was just another young fan desperate for any information on what had been a highly publicised title, so for it to disappear from the news pages of magazines and websites alike meant there were plenty of unanswered questions. I know there's a much larger gathering around the prototype version of Biohazard 2, but would you criticise those searching for that game just because they were still fresh-faced when Capcom pulled the plug on it? Maybe some of you would and others wouldn't - either way, it's not really for me to make such assumptions!
Because of growing talents as a graphic designer, English student and my enthusiasm for videogame reporting, I was considered someone with great potential by the time I reached college. On top of this, I was then lucky enough to meet similarly-minded people with equally ambitious plans and the skills to ultimately realise such goals. Within a few short months, we'd put together a decent little site and even acquired financial backing that allowed us the opportunity to visit local software development houses as journalists.
After a while, it became obvious we could do a lot more than we had originally planned for our project, though sadly my colleagues later chose to focus on more specific elements. One has since moved on to become a network technician, while another is making a name for himself as an artist working on low level RPGs and graphic novels. I'm not sure what the other main guy is doing these days, yet the last time I checked he was making use of his IT knowledge for some city firm.
Coming back to myself (and I know how egomaniacal that may seem!), I continued on with the project using every spare moment I could find. University meant a lot of the hard work took a proverbial backseat, but it also gave me the chance to sample great experiences I may not have otherwise been able to, including meeting some really interesting people. After a few years pursuing other interests of a quite personal nature, I decided to give my old hobby another shot and started digging out all the old resources I'd kept from before.
From the very beginning, my only foot in the door - so to speak - has been the chance to at least talk with industry insiders who usually provided little more than stock responses or the rather conclusive "no comment." However, every now and then someone would offer a little insight that made the whole project exciting and worth sticking with, though rejection has always gone with the territory. I'm lucky to have seen a few of my articles published in the past, and incredibly none were related to the subject of videogaming, which I still consider more something I enjoy writing about than actually participating in. From a very early age it has been my dream to write, though fiction isn't really my thing. I don't confess to being perfect, and if there's anyone prepared to point me in the right direction to improvement rather than simply undermine my work then I look forward to having conversations, maybe privately here or elsewhere.
In quick response to the suggestion I've only ever been a wannabe insider, I have to ask one question - who doesn't, really? We all have to begin somewhere, and I've already achieved quite a bit without even having to consider the negtivity being displayed by certain fellow authors on this thread. I have absolutely no intention of engaging in acts of "holier-than-thou" bravado, though it's clear a minority is mistaking my comments for those of someone who is simply desperate for attention, approval and authority.
As I said right at the beginning of this post, that's as far removed from the truth as I could have intended to get, though if you're picking up that vibe I must apologise right now before things get out of hand. I've always loved coming here and exchanging information, admiring collectors of rare items and learning about various things you simply can't find anywhere else. However, if it's going to become nothing more than a personal slanging match here then I won't hesitate to focus my energies on other things - life's too short to have regrets, in my opinion.
So, just before I go for now, I would like to point out that I'm more than happy to credit my friends, former colleagues and sources when the time is right. There are a few that may prove difficult without prior clearance, but for most of the time I shouldn't have any problems naming those who've proved resourceful in the past. I'm fully aware of how ridiculous the idea may seem, yet it's true to say friends of friends did prove fruitful in my ultimate search for the truth. I'm sure a few things I've learned over the years may have been red herrings or later disproved, but surely we all learn as we go along? Also, we can't really discredit magazines as a source of information. If they were so unreliable, why did anyone pay these writers back in the day, never mind actually print their work? My intention is to research old articles and bring them up to date with any new angles that have since been discovered, maybe creating a more clear picture of certain subjects. As mentioned earlier, I was fortunate enough to have spoken with some genuine insiders who realised I possessed not only knowledge but the necessary skills and determination to succeed. To leave you with a final comment, why should I let a few comments get in the way? Now, constructive criticism, on the other hand...
Not quite... try:
1) Prepared to accept constructive criticism
2) Open to opposing views and arguments
3) Not interested in making things personal
4) Absolutely - no, DEFINITELY - going nowhere
I like this place too much to let one heated discussion put me off, and I'm sure anyone in my position would do the same, right? There's more to life than just this thread, you know!
You bring this upon yourself when you make grandiose statements, but that's neither here nor there, really. I wouldn't want you to leave - no reason why you should. If bad posts were a crime here then I'd be long gone, and I dare say most of the rest of the forum would as well.
I'm prepared to admit my past mistakes, but more importantly I'd really hate for anyone to be forced out because of what seems at times like an imminent flame war. Some of my posts aren't really suited to the message board format, though instead of straight complaints I'd rather be given constructive criticism - a phrase I've been using a lot recently - that I can learn from. Besides, isn't the ability to write complex pieces a sign I might have what it takes to create a good website or magazine, depending on whatever direction my project ultimately goes? I love this place because it's a fantastic source of information (especially on a technical level) that isn't readily available elsewhere, and there's really no reason to fall out due to such minor points. I know it's a bit late for new year's resolutions, but I'm going to make an exception: from now on I'll try to keep things shorter where possible! Returning to a past suggestion, how about we all pool together and see if AM2 will release any further media from the Saturn prototype of Shenmue or even Virtua Fighter 3 for the console? Let's hear it for group harmony...
"see if AM2 will release any further media from the Saturn prototype of Shenmue or even Virtua Fighter 3 for the console?"
count with me 100%
Really, what kind of damage that would bring to Sega??
We also have to keep in mind that most of the people that worked at Sega back in the day is long gone , (almost in am2 it seems..)
Who can provide us such info we already want???
I don't honestly believe that releasing footage of cancelled games from over ten years ago would cause any significant damage to a company like Sega, as Capcom proved when it did the same with the Biohazard 2 prototype clips it released on the Biohazard Complete Disc.
Using that particular example and others as reference (such as the PlayStation version of Ico that was featured in video form as part of a PS2 special edition package), there are a small number of fans who'd love to see anything from games they knew existed but didn't see the light of day - for whatever reason that may have been.
Specifically on the subject of AM2's late Saturn era abandoned projects and the only people I can think of contacting who may still around from that period, how about Hiroshi Kataoka, Keiji Okayasu or Akira Yamanaka as possible candidates? The first is a definite, though I'm not even sure myself if the latter haven't already left - still, I guess there's no harm in trying to find out!
Who said I only want to be seen as some kind of omnipresent know-it-all? Also, notice that I'm writing shorter posts (well, for most of the time!) that are more relevant, less rant-like and with regular paragraph spacing... despite some people here suggesting it couldn't be done? Let's keep things light-hearted from now on, and just be thankful I can joke about this whole thread and its many outcomes in retrospect!
P.S. Does having other forum users quoting you in such a way equal notoriety or fame? Better yet, how about we call it infamy? If that's the case, I'm proud to be infamous! Laugh out loud, indeed, as someone recently put it so well!
Hiroshi Kataoka wasn't the one that said Saturn VF3 was never made??? Well,,but...how we can contact such people?
I think one of the easiest and best things we can do is make some kind of web or videos for youtube trying to demand info.
Well, it's a pretty shitty idea, but...any other suggestions?
My old college website attracted members of Team 17, Lobotomy Software and (what later became) Sumo Digital to contact me anonymously, each time leading to revelations about games either long since cancelled or yet to be released at the point they got in touch with me. While there's a world of difference between such third party western developers and Sega's in-house AM departments, I'm sure we could ask someone with better links if they would mind passing on a few questions. Adam Doree seems a perfect choice for such as task, even if Hiroshi Kataoka did indeed claim to have no knowledge of Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 during a VF5-themed interview for 1UP that I can recall. Still, I guess that he could provide valuable information relating to the Saturn prototype version of Shenmue, which I presume everyone at AM2 must have known about as VF3 was mostly Yu Suzuki's project (created in determination after the first revision was supposedly - and note that I said "supposedly" - rejected)... While we're suggesting possible names, how about Mark Maslowicz, Andy Mee and Shoichirou Irimajiri? Highly unlikely, I know, but who's to say we can't at least get a response from one of these? Few realised there was a Saturn build of Shenmue until we saw it for the first time after completing the second game on our Dreamcasts, so there's obviously room for surprises in the world of Sega fandom!
Good English isn't about having a huge vocabulary really, but being able to express yourself clearly and concisely. Ask any decent journalist.
Editing what you want to say down to something as short as possible is paramount. Look at CVs (resumes to any Yanks reading). They should be two pages maximum. If you waffled on there, your potential employer would just throw it in the bin.
Anyway, this thread is going wildly off topic with wild speculation and petty arguements. BOOORRRINNGGG!
Well said... and you should see the amount of "waffle" I've already trimmed from the few complete articles written so far as part of my project!
stop acting like children, I m open to reading anyone's view on the matter and making my own mind up - no interest in bashing and I d advise you the same if you consider yourself a mature adult.
Ok, then, let's try to contact those individuals... how? when?
Could be ok to make some kind of campaign?
I seriously doubt a public campaign is the right way of doing things, as your average gamer couldn't care less about a prototype - never mind the fact we're focusing on one for a system that took enough of a hammering in its own lifespan! If this is to work, we should concentrate on either raising awareness (which again is unlikely to happen) or prove we know our subject before making contact with someone low down the Sega corporate rankings.
Then, if they're convinced we are familiar enough with Shenmue Saturn Version and its history, plus we have realistic targets of what to expect, maybe we'll get lucky and have more than just a single video clip to discuss in the future? However, our goal with this should NOT be to see if we can acquire playable code because it's financially unlikely Sega will invest in such an effort, especially when the end product would only ever reach a select few interested people...
On the other hand, perhaps we could try and see if known/rumoured full cancelled games might be possible, such as Saturn Virtua Fighter 3, Propeller Arena (even though we already have this one) or Dee Dee Planet, the latter recently mentioned in another post here. I know this all might seem like a very long shot, but surely it's better than not trying anything at all?
Seems the more intelligent option.
What are the chances to get in contact NOW with any of those?? I doubt Kataoka would bring something...
Suzuki (believe it or not guys...) would be in my opinion, the easiest way.
While he's not entirely free of Sega, I do agree that Yu Suzuki may now be more willing to disclose information about Shenmue in its 32-bit infancy than before when he was still tied to the company and (presumably) all the gagging orders that come with such a position. Even though it's been a few years since the Kikizo interview, I'm not sure he'd be prepared to reveal much - if anything - regarding Saturn VF3, but as you may have already noticed that's something I'd love to know more of, especially from such a figure of authority on the subject!
Hiroshi Kataoka definitely isn't worth approaching unless it's to confirm how much of VF4's resources were stolen from him by Suzuki for the Shenmue project (hence its lengthy delay), even though Yu also lended his name to that game as "producer." However, there's little chance anyone outside of Sega's trusted circle of journalists will ever get close enough to interview Kataoka or Suzuki, even if the latter does share the same levels of freedom as Yuji Naka and Tetsuya Mizuguchi outside the AM structure. Still, as I've said before, it's surely worth a try... yes?
Look at this, straight ahead from the Dreamcast...looks a lot brighter than the typical shenmue-youtube video.
You can see a lot more of aspects and cleaner things, like all the doors in the dojo or see deeply in the forest (reminds me a lot to the one in panzer dragoon saga).
Damn, this beats even panzer dragoon saga graphically. i hope more of this thing surfaces someday, because this DESECRATES TO HELL every other 32 bit game released ever graphically.
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