Prototype PS1/PS2

Discussion in 'Sony Programming and Development' started by PS1collector, Jan 2, 2015.

  1. sp193

    sp193 Site Soldier

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    Yea, it has one PSU for the whole thing. They don't share peripherals though, although the systems are physically connected to each other.

    @unclejun: what was the GS board? Wasn't the DTL-H10100 a normal Debugstation (although it has nearly full MG capabilities)? How would it have a board connected to it?
     
  2. unclejun

    unclejun Site Supporter 2011-2014

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    The GS board/DTL-H10100 came after the Cygnus emu and before the EB-series, just for testing the capabilities of the GS chip.
    It must have used a connection to the PC running GSutil similar to the PsyQ interface for the PS1 external dev units.
    There's not much more documentation on it than the slides from a dev conference i posted...
     
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  3. l_oliveira

    l_oliveira Officer at Arms

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    DTL-H10100 is a PS2 Debugging station model (It's a PCMCIA SCPH-10000 which read CDRs and DVDRs) which is capable of booting from Magic Gate encrypted elfs installed on memory cards.
    Google for "SCPH-10020 TDB Startup card". That's used to boot a program on the target box which then will make the device accessible through DECI2 protocol which would then allow it to be used as if it was a "mini-PS2 TOOL".

    They also made expansion bay units with that capability. "DTL-H3010x" and "DTL-H5000x" units. Slim DebuggingStations would also work with it as is.

    Edit: Considering Unclejun's post (which I didn't see while typing this) that could be some confusing model name matching.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2015
  4. Jack.

    Jack. RISC Master Race

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    Yeah, I've read about that. The 10100 is alike the 3010x series, they are MagicGate-enabled (thanks @sp193 ;)). I've also read about the TDB startup card, which AFAIK is what @sp193 based his RDB program onto.
    Is it easier to find a 3010x or a 5000x?

    Yes, I think so... This GSutil stuff seems to be related to performance tests on early GS hardware... (maybe PCI cards? :confused:)
     
  5. smf

    smf mamedev

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    Yes the DTL-H2500 is a PlayStation on a PCI card. It has flash memory for the boot rom as well, so you can do some interesting things with it. I've been meaning to try putting one in a case with a drive and breakout the connections to standard PSX ones to make an ultimate debug.

    There was a DTL-H500 and a DTL-H505 target box that had different revisions of the chipset, the gpu changed quite a bit and possibly gte. DTL-H500C & DTL-H505C are controllers.

    The PSX kernel/OS is completely different to unix, it's more of a realtime kernel than an OS even though they do refer to it as an OS. There isn't much of a hardware abstraction, some of the SDK libraries hit the hardware directly and others patch the RAM copy of the ROM (ROM is slower than RAM in the PS1). They had to be very careful when making changes to remain compatible with games built with the old SDK, in some cases they failed and it got worse with the PS2 backward compatibility (even their PS3 software emulation of the PS1 has issues running some games). There are so many bugs and weird design choices that it's clear they were up against it to get this out of the door.

    We don't know entirely what the difference is between the console chipset and the target boxes, there are some changes listed in functionality in one of the documentation. I got the impression that the Target box needed another computer to control it & it wasn't a NEWS with some plugin boards. SN Systems produced an ISA board for hooking a PC up to the Target box, so it is possible it didn't need to have a built in workstation. However as there is little information about it there could be a standard NEWS and a prototype PS1 in the same box, like Sony selling a PC with a DTL-H2000 already in it. This is essentially what the TOOL is, however Sony still wanted you to use ANOTHER PC to actually control the TOOL over Ethernet (they blank off the PC's VGA output for example).

    The early System 11 arcade boards had a different GPU which isn't compatible with the console, later boards switched to the console GPU and some games are compatible with both GPU's. Tekken came out before the console launch and it cannot run on the console GPU, only the earlier version of the GPU. We don't know if either the DTL-H500/DTL-H505 GPU was similar to the one used in Tekken, there is a rumour that the DTL-H505 was the final CPU+GPU but doesn't necessarily have the SPU or CDROM. Rumour has it that Namco received a CDROM for their development system when they had practically finished Ridge Racer and they needed to add the Audio (it's a single load game and it's only use of the CDROM is for streaming red book audio).

    IMO It's likely that the case is the only thing that is shared between this and the NEWS workstation, although it's possible they were using a real MIPS R3000 in the early days. Later they switched to a semi-compatible LSI clone that could be customised, there are a lot of differences to the R3000 but you won't really notice when writing games in C using the official SDK.

    Sony weren't using PC and DOS at the time, they liked unix and non x86. The hardware they created matched their experience. While the original hardware was more expensive, it's likely that they didn't make more profit as a result. The DTL-H2000 came about purely because they bought Psygnosis in 1993 to produce games. Whether they knew it or not Psygnosis had acted as a publisher for SN Systems.

    SN Systems had been producing software for PC's to target consoles and 8/16 bit computers, they convinced Sony that as western developers already had PC's then the cost could be considerably reduced for them. Sony knew how important the western developers were going to be, they were courting developers in London quite early.

    The PS2 succeeded more because of momentum than anything Sony did. While the PS1 simplified game development such that any idiot that could program in C could get something on screen, which compared to 8/16 bit was a big change. The PS2 was much harder. By the PS3 they had lost momentum and it was still hard to program and they appeared to forget to generate interest (why should they, everyone had been coming to them for years).

    While it looks like a bit of a dog now, the PS1 was truly Sony's technical golden age. But then everyone suffers from second system effect at some point.

    Target boxes are like hen's teeth, I'd love to get some programming time on one.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2015
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  6. Twilight

    Twilight Site Supporter 2015

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    The DTL-H500/DTL-H505 PS-X Target Box operates from the host PC connected by SCSI cable to the DTL-S510B interface card.

    No DTL-H505C controllers were used with DTL-H505, only DTL-H500C.
     
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  7. Jackhead

    Jackhead Site Soldier

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    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
  8. Twilight

    Twilight Site Supporter 2015

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    What do you want to see?...
     
  9. Jackhead

    Jackhead Site Soldier

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    The interface board S510b. thx
     
  10. Twilight

    Twilight Site Supporter 2015

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    You can find some pictures via Google. The same (near) cards were used for many Psy-Q dev kits.
     
  11. Twilight

    Twilight Site Supporter 2015

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Jackhead

    Jackhead Site Soldier

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    thanks for pictures! looks really the SN Emu board on beta, nice :)
     
  13. HI_Ricky

    HI_Ricky Intrepid Member

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    del....
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  14. HI_Ricky

    HI_Ricky Intrepid Member

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    del....
     
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  15. HI_Ricky

    HI_Ricky Intrepid Member

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    old Disc but at image see, same DTL-S number but come with different data. ;)

    IMG_6221.JPG
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017

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