Discussion in 'Neo Geo Discussion' started by Dion, Mar 6, 2011.
They did add an Omake mode specifically for JP arcades. Not sure how tough that is though.
Off topic posts removed - keep it civil guys. If you wish to vent your frustrations you are well aware of the unmoderated thread, though I ask that you moderate yourselves there.
On a side note I almost bought a CD-Z the other day but meh.
That's not why the reception wasn't so good. I gave some feedback back to the developers on it.
1) There was no auto rapid fire (later added in a revision)
2) Visuals are too drab and boring for Japanese tastes
3) No Japanese language game explanation (ie mini marquee, in-game instructions per SNK licensed MVS games)
4) Art needs help
From an income perspective, The DC Fast Striker release came too soon for arcade owners. In Last Hope PB's case, the console versions were already available and it's not a game that's well designed to make money which I fear will be the same case with Gunlord (ie long slow levels).
NGF In-Circle ladder system for unreleased prototype games
I wanted to clear up some confusion in regards to other sites giving wrong information about NGF sales of previously unreleased protos.
While it is true we did use our NGF In-Circle status system for these sales, the qualifications other sites are quoting are untrue. (such as a $50,000 minimum purchase - which is totally false)
At the time we offered unreleased titles such as Ironclad, Ghostlop, Zintrick, Bang Busters, Warlocks, etc....there were only about 25 titles that a members needed to own (mvs only titles). The average price was $500 each.
To obtain all mvs only titles would only cost $12,500. (25 x $500 = $12,500) ($1000 a year for 12 years)
Nowadays, most collectors have all the games that were in our ladder system anyway (shock troopers, panic bomber, exchanger, etc...), but they purchased them outside of NeoGeoFreak. The people that bought their games and showed loyalty to NeoGeoFreak were rewarded with the bonus of the exclusive unreleased titles option, free insert upgrades, and various free bonus gifts (flyers, posters, collectibles, etc...).
We offered unreleased titles of Ghostlop, Bang Busters, Ironclad, Crossed Swords 2, Warlocks for only $1500 - $2000. (cheap compared to today's prices on regular aes releases). However, we did have OPEN SALES two times at the CGE shows in vegas. Open sale prices were double at approximately $3000 and $4000 each. People flew in from England, France, Germany, Brazil, and even as far as Australia for the open sales opportunity.
Games are out there and have filtered down
Approximately 50 people have purchased games such as Warlocks, Crossed Swords 2, Mystic Wand, Ironclad, Ghostlop, Bang Busters, etc.... Some of the protos have changed hands many times, leading to the eventual dump and release from various unlicensed resellers.
After a game has been dumped and offered for mass sale, the game loses all of it's mystic. Games that were once in high demand like Ghostlop, Ironclad, Bang Busters, and soon TotC, have now lost their appeal. NeoGeoFreak wanted to prevent that from happening, and that is why we limited our sales to ranking In-Circle members.
New mass sale releases of protos and continued support
In the long run, we knew all games would eventually be resold, dumped, and offered on mass sale releases.
Since we were no longer doing business as NeoGeoFreak, we started offering our personal proto copies for sale in the open market last year. Some of the buyers have already dumped and offered these as "New Release" sales.
With more titles being released in the coming months/years, NeoGeoFreak is excited to see the fans are still showing their support for the aes system.
I've had a mild interest in the Neo Geo CD (in particular the CD-Z due to faster loading, cheaper Metal Slug and it is quite sexy to look at!)
Did you sell more CD games vs AES because of the huge price difference, or was AES/MVS carts still more popular?
Were any of the CD titles NGF 'Freaked'?
Despite the long loading times, are there any CD games that are good enough to mitigate this for play on the original Neo Geo CD system?
Are there any games you would only reccomend playing on the CD-Z as they are unbearable on Neo Geo CD?
Lastly my friend and I are big fans of co-op gaming - are there any Neo Geo CD games with co-op modes and were they any good or popular?
The loading times on Art of Fighting 3 are hellish, definitely the worst I've encountered on the system. And don't be fooled by the CD-Z claims of much faster loading times, for the most part it's not really that big a difference, definitely not worth the huge jump in price from a top-loader which is by far the most reliable of the 3 versions of the system available.
As for co-op games Roddy & Cathy is sublime and there's a few 'proper' side-scrolling beaters like the 2 Sengoku games amongst others that are worth playing if you can pick them up cheap. What is a crying shame is that neither of the Shock Troopers games were ported to disc, not as polished as the Metal Slug titles but still 2 great games full of mindless blasting action to help you unwind at the end of the day.
In my opinion, the CDZ is the neocd system of choice for it's ascetics, and the faster load times does make it more enjoyable. I liked the look of the original front loading neocd system: very impressive. But the CDZ had a very unique look to it and it still looks good to this day. The CDZ system is also the most compact and reliable of the three.
NeoGeo CD: front loader
Neo CD: top loader
Fighting, Fighting, Fighting. Loading, Loading, Loading.
As much as the neo cd was a great effort, it never really caught on. What really hurt the system was the fact that most of the titles were fighting games, and the fighting games had to load upon every new match/opponent. Other games, such as action, puzzle, shooters, were more enjoyable and only loaded once time per each level. And those loads were fast and didn't detract from the gameplay.
Genre spines - they finally see the light
As for Freaked cd games, that question was asked and answered already.
There was no need to Freak the cd games because snk finally decided to follow a genre packaging system. All the cd titles said the genre style on the spine (action, shooting, sports, puzzle, variety, racing, fighting)(even as far as making subgenres: katana battle fighting, super sports, team fighting). Plus the cd games came shrink-wrapped.
1 system, 2 system, 3 system, 4??
Another factor that hurt the neogeo cd system was the constant failures of snk and their rush to redesign and remarket the cd system three times in two years, thus creating consumer confusion. We were all waiting for a new and improved 4th version of the neogeo cd system to be released, but it never materialized.
only $12,500 to have a chance to own prototype games seems pretty fair to me, not sure why people are giving Dion a hard time
You may be reading it wrong and/or not understanding the point I was making.
$12,500 got the person 25 aes cartridges to add to their collection that were previously only available as mvs only titles. These include some of the best games on the neogeo. We also did NOT set a time limit. A person could take 10 or more years, if they so desired, buying only 2 titles a year for only $500 each.
Once someone who proved themselves as a collector and a true NeoGeoFreak, only then did we allow them to purchase an unreleased proto game for only $1500-$2000. That was one way of protecting the integrity of the unreleased proto games and prevent dumping (which can sometimes render a game less desirable).
Take Bang Busters for example.
We sold our copy to a collector. The game roms were copied/dumped and sold as a "release." The game has now filtered down and is being sold by a myriad of resellers in japan, europe, brazil, and even in the United States on eBay for a low $169.
I've never actually seen or heard of the front loading Neo Geo CD before, which I guess makes some sense given as I am not in the scene and the frquent changes in a short period of time.
Is there any reason why people may shun the front loading Neo Geo CD, aside from the fact it is slow and hideous?
In what way was the top loading Neo Geo an improvement over the front loading version?
In what way could a 4th version of a Neo geo CD improve upon the CD-Z and others?
Would the top loading Neo Geo CD be a good buy in it's own right? Granted it will not be as beautiful or as fast as the CD-Z, but if it is significantly cheaper and still plays the games it may be more tempting to buy - especially in the current economic climate.
Also it appears one of my quesitons was missed, though maybe it was answered another time. Out of interest did Neo Geo Freak sell more Neo Geo CD games (due to their lower price) than AES or MVS games, or did cartridge titles generally sell better, despite the higher price?
The front loader is/was prone to tray issues apparently and SNK supposedly picked up on this quite quickly hence the short time between the initial machines release and the appearance of the top-loader, and this is probably the main reason the top-loaders are the preferred units, less moving parts = less to potentially go tits up.
Front loader = limited edition = higher price
There is nothing wrong with the front loader. The biggest difference was the fact that the new top loader was $200 lower in price. The front loader is still more expensive and harder to find, so I personally think more people still prefer the front loader over the top loader. They only made 25,000 front loading neo cd systems. Pretty rare for a mass marketed system.
CD trays are pretty reliable
As I said, it was $200 cheaper and some people may have overly worried about the front loader having more moving parts because it used a moving cd tray. The cd tray loading mechanism has been perfected over the years and I have never seen one fail (although anything can happen). My home desktop, laptop, music cd player, dvd player, laserdisc, and even my 3DO all have front loading cd trays and they all work fine. No reason to worry about the neogeo front loading drive failing.
NeoStar = AES/CD Duo
SNK started giving hints about a 4th revision being a possible CD add on to the aes, and they even considered making a two in one cartridge/cd system very similar to the PCEngineDuo/TurboDuo, but it never materialized. The working title was NeoStar. Now THAT is something that may have been a great little novelty for collectors.
Neo cds in bulk
During our snk buyout, we received over 50000 neo cds, and we immediately sold most our stock to other resellers in bulk lots. I think we sold over 1000 to ng.com for $5-$6 each, 2500 to ncs for $5 each, and many other retailers in lots of 100 to 1000 from $5-$8 each. Even though we did do a few hundred direct cd sales, we didn't really want to bother selling a few cds at a time (we preferred bulk sales). The retailers we distributed to were reselling the cds for $30 each, which was a fair price and we were glad we could help other sellers make some money. It took the other resellers a few years to finally sell out, but everyone eventually did sell out. We took the less profitable, but quicker route of selling in bulk to double our money in a shorter amount of time.
some of our neo cd stock
Neo fans still prefer cartridges
Even though neo cds were much lower in price, the cartridges still sold better. I guess it was something about those big blocky cartridges that neo fans really enjoyed. Maybe because of the box, inserts, and the overall look made the collection very impressive when displayed. To this day neo fans prefer the cartridges.
In case people are wondering, I have the complete japanese neo cd line-up in my personal collection.
They only made 30,000 front loading neo cd systems
25.000 for japan
5.000 for export
I am agree with the moving NGCD tray quality
Are these unreleased or prototype games on EPROMs or did SNK manufacture MaskROMs? Just curious.
I think dumping and releasing prototype games is a far better thing to do than to keep them in the closet or to sell to people "deemed worthy". It serves a community to allow them all to enjoy unreleased NeoGeo games. Selling them to an "In-Group" is just having a big boys club. Eventually such things are lost, probably discarded into a landfill.
The same is true of anything you collect. It doesn't matter that you spend thousands on NeoGeo AES games or have prototypes. In the end it's all going in the trash. It doesn't matter how pristine things are or how much you appreciate it. All things are temporary. Things break, degrade, eventually are trashed. That is something great about emulation since it will be around long after old hardware including the NeoGeo are all extinct. If there is anyone alive then that actually cares they will be able to enjoy it.
On another note, The NeoGeo CD should have taken a page out of the Sega Saturn and N64 playbook and had a RAM expansion module in the original design as that certainly could have extended its life span.
Since the games never made it into full production for mask roms, all protos are eproms, or in some cases FLASH Roms.
I agree with you 100%.
Read what I wrote on page 17:
<<(quote from page 17)
New mass sale releases of protos and continued support
In the long run, we knew all games would eventually be resold, dumped, and offered on mass sale releases.
Since we were no longer doing business as NeoGeoFreak, we started offering our personal proto copies for sale in the open market last year. Some of the buyers have already dumped and offered these as "New Release" sales.>>
If the buyers/owners want to upload and share the roms, that is their choice. But so far, not a single person has shared/uploaded a true neogeo proto of an UNRELEASED TITLE. Take Bang Busters for example; Bang Busters hasn't been uploaded to the emulation sites, and there are tons of people that own a copy. So shouldn't your argument about people sharing/dumping/uploading the game roms go out to everyone that owns a copy of that title?
We sold our copy and later a "release" is made available.
Check playmore's press release and check Item #13: Bang Busters
<<those video games, were purchased from SNK Corporation Japan, and were sold by NeoGeoFreak/NGF-USA with the permission of SNK Corporation Japan. These games were sold by NeoGeoFreak/NGF-USA with the corrected English AES inserts with the permission of SNK Corporation Japan.>>
As anyone can clearly see, SNK-Japan sold and gave us written authorization for sales and packaging of all neogeo titles, including Bang Busters. Our authorization is out in the open for everyone to see. All this was signed and verified in US Federal Court.
I'm glad you agree. I hope in time all these games are eventually available for everyone to enjoy. And I wasn't picking on you about anything. I'm not sure if you could legally have actually released the ROM images or not anyway, and that would assume you had the files to begin with.
Didn't IronClad actually get released thanks to SNKP releasing it on the Wii Virtual Console and the ROM files subsequently being ripped out of it? I know I saw an IronClad MVS cart on ebay not long ago.
It just bothers me that it seems some people would rather these things slip into oblivion opposed to being shared with the relatively small group of people that care and would greatly enjoy them. At the same time I'm not saying anyone has a right to have these handed out to them given the cost they may have incurred in getting them. But the recent past has shown generally a community interested in these things can raise money to pay for it.
Did you ever consider selling protos that are unreleased to a group intending on dumping and preserving it for everyone?
Articulate and I'll always answer
Feel free to debate. Some people choose to yell and name call, and I tend to ignore those types of rants. But I don't let immature people bother me, so it doesn't matter to me if someone wants to act foolish.
I didn't think you were picking on me personally, I just wanted to express that you should make your feelings clear to everyone about rom sharing/dumping, not single me out. You actually made great points and made a very articulate post. I look forward to hearing more from you.
Did you not check the link to playmore's press release that I posted above? We did have the games, and we had them from years ago. Most of the protos and videos of protos came from NeoGeoFreak, including Ghostlop, Zupapa, Fun Fun Brothers, Ironclad, Last Odyssey, Ganryu, etc...
Yes, no, and Wii
We had, and sold, Ironclad to ranking in circle members years before the Playmore released it on the Wii. As you pointed out, more aes and mvs copies were made and sold due to the roms being dumped for Wii. But rest assured, if Playmore was still supporting the neogeo aes/mvs, they would have never released any roms for Wii.
Within time, I think all games will be available via online play option systems or via emulators.
The games are planned
We've sold plenty of unreleased protos from years ago: Ghostlop, Ironclad, Bang Bead, Diggerman, Zupapa, Irritating Maze: Joystick. And we've also sold many within the last year or two: Bang Busters, Last Odyssey, and just a few months ago Warlocks of the Fates and Crossed Swords 2. There's a lot in the works for the coming next few years. And we still have a few more titles on reserve for a future dates.
How you can continue to lie so blatantly is beyond me.
Are you suggesting that NCI for example got their protos from you. You imply that certainly, and it simply isn't true. Anyone can ask them......
I look forward to seeing what else makes its way out to the public. I remember playing NeoGeo arcade machines from time to time but what really got me interested was when I saw all the games I never would have otherwise thanks to the internet and emulation. I've only ever seen 2 NeoGeo cabinets on location. SvC Chaos doesn't count since it was not a MVS cabinet and sold as a dedicated PCB. Emulation and the Internet, it's the reason I bought a MVS arcade board and a significant reason for building my own SuperGun.
I have noticed there is alot of drama when it comes to NeoGeo in online communities. wheelaa, what is he lieing about? He didn't say "all" protos came from him, he said he "most".
I've added some photos of a few of the protos.
The ones pictured show the use of Flash Memory cards and custom boards.
Neo Pool Master
Many people have never seen these flash memory proto cartridges.
These are some of the wildest collectible items in all of neogeo collecting.
Separate names with a comma.