Metal Gear Solid Rising(Beta)

Discussion in 'Unreleased Games Discussion' started by shenmue19, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. shenmue19

    shenmue19 Member

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    With the new trailer and re-development under Platinum Games, the original Metal Gear Rising was originally scrapped. We're in our current generation now, but hopefully sometime in the PS4,NextBox, Wii-U era this beta will get released. I'd really love to see it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtM3PGyiQUc
     
  2. Prometheus

    Prometheus Site supporter 2016

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    I liked that build WAY more than the new one. It looked much more fluid and overall better than the one that's being made now. It also looked much more original and unique than the new one, which looks like a generic hack-n-slash with MGS characters. Look at how Raiden cuts the soldiers in the original trailer and how they actually get cut and sliced. In the new trailer, Raiden hits people and it appears that they only get hurt a little. You know, like every other generic hack-n-slash.

    I don't care if it's made by Platinum Games. I don't care if they make good action games. It doesn't change the fact that the original build was leagues better than the new one.

    The main argument I hear for the change is that Raiden would be too powerful against soldiers and stealth would be redundant. Bullshit. If that's true, then how did I play stealth missions as a cyborg ninja in MGS1:VR and MGS2:Substance? In each of those, the sword was incredibly powerful and could even block bullets in MGS2 yet it still felt very stealthy and death was still very possible.

    And even if Raiden was overpowered like I hear he would have, then why did they make him weaker gameplay wise AND remove stealth completely? It doesn't make any sense. But I guess it doesn't have to because "IT'S TIME FOR JACK TO LET 'ER RIP!".
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  3. GodofHardcore

    GodofHardcore Paragon of the Forum *

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    Sure lets assume everything even though we basically saw nothing
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  4. Prometheus

    Prometheus Site supporter 2016

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    Nothing? I don't know what trailer you saw, but the one I saw showed me plenty enough to form an opinion. I've seen so many of my favorite video game franchises both old and new get sequels and reboots that do no justice to the original, so excuse me if I sound bitter or pessimistic about MGR:Revengence.

    To be clear, I did NOT say the new one would be awful. I just said that the original concept was much more unique and showed more potential than the one being made now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  5. Cypher

    Cypher Rising Member

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    The old trailer was just pre-scripted set-pieces and bits and pieces put together like a tech-demo.

    Konami themselves in interviews have said that the entire design of the original version was flawed at a fundamental game design level, as it wasn't a stealth game was trying to keep part of that inside itself which was in total opposition to the newer features they were trying to go forward with.

    Something like a AAA game being cancelled and then the IP being given to another company is not done without just-cause nowadays, I have to say from the looks of the older version it would have seemed cool but would have quickly gotten old.

    They had fallen victim to the same issue that has plagued many devs (especially japanese ones) in recent years where a lack of communication has allowed flawed ideas to grow and expand out of control to the degree where you either cut your losses or release a game that will be critically slated and is internally hated just as an attempt to re-coup some of the money that was sunk into it. E.g. Sonic 06 - (game was unfinished in every way with the deisgn/programming team having shifted many times before and after Naka left, but there was huge pressure for a sonic game for the ps3 launch and various other internal reasons) and Final Fantasy 13 where artists, designers, script writers and designers barely spoke, to the degree where characters were designed and their personality/storys were made around that, where around 40% more areas of the game were designed and built but left unused (however some will have been used in ffxiii-2 now)

    Its why the design/publisher funding relationship now is so over-the-top with marketing having to be pelted with demo builds and such.
     
  6. accel99

    accel99 Spirited Member

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    I agree with the post above me.The developers pretty much said the game was without structure and focus, so they quietly cancelled it.I think andriasang has some of the interview if you look it up.They also admit despite having all this time they never got past the tech demo they showed off,thats how lost they were.
     
  7. Vosse

    Vosse Well Known Member

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    Pretty much this.

    IIRC Kojima Pro was having problems getting their Fox engine to run the game at anything higher than 30FPS(Which really, is NOT a HUGE deal)
    and they couldn't make the action feel fluid or natural or some other bullhonky.

    I was kind of looking forward A LOT to how Raiden was captured and experiemented on at Area 51 by the Patriots , how he was rescued and then recused sunny.

    And they could've made stealth work PERFECTLY FINE.

    Still, i'm gonna enjoy this new one too. Just in it's own way.
     
  8. Prometheus

    Prometheus Site supporter 2016

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    They may have said that, but I don't buy it. You don't have to be a game designer to know there are MANY ways they could've kept stealth while having a larger focus on action. A basic example of what Rising could have been:

    The game starts shortly after MGS2 and the player controls non-cyborg Raiden in a mission to save Sunny (this is the only part that plays like older Metal Gear games). Raiden fails his mission and gets captured, experimented on, and turned into the cyborg ninja we see in the trailers. He manages to escape but is weak and not used to his cyborg body, so he relies on stealth kills and sneaking to survive (you know, like previous cyborg ninjas in the series). He can still do the cool things we see in the trailer, but he's not invincible and can get overwhelmed by soldiers and can get killed/captured. Players would have to play it smart and combine stealth and action to progress further (Know when to run and hide, and know when to stand and fight. Hey, this sounds like...Metal Gear!?!?).

    As the game progresses, Raiden defeats heavy mechs and uses the now cancelled Zan-Datsu (cut-and-take) method to absorb their power, getting stronger and stronger the more he defeats (gameplay-wise, it is similar to how Snake gets stronger in MGS1 after defeating a boss). Eventually, he becomes strong enough story-wise to do the stuff he does in MGS4. As Raiden gets stronger, human enemies become less threatening, so mechanical enemies (similar to the geckos in MGS4) would appear so the player can't just cut through everything and expect to win. The player would still have to sneak around otherwise the mechanical enemies would overwhelm Raiden and put an end to his mission.

    That's just a basic outline, there is of course more to it than that. Is it perfect? No, but I think a game structured like that could cater to new fans wanting fast paced, precision cutting action, while still keeping the old "stealth" feel of the series and letting players get a feel of what it might have been like controlling Gray Fox in MGS1.

    If I can think of a way to combine stealth and sword cutting action, then why can't Kojima's team? Lack of communication is no excuse, as that is something that can be easily remedied. If they really wanted to, they could've made it like they said they wanted to. I just think they bit off more than they could chew and decided to pass the buck off to someone else. ("You don't rike it? Brame Pratinum Games!")

    Actually I think for this type of game, a consistent 60 FPS is very important. But if that was the case, why not hold off and make Rising a launch game for the 720/PS4 and utilize the extra memory and capabilities instead? Many people want for the next gen systems to arrive, and there would be little to no competition. Not to mention since it's a launch game, the dated (not really) graphics would get a pass.

    That's what I want to see too. It makes no sense for Raiden to be a cyborg ninja AFTER MGS4 since he had everything surgically removed and was able to be a normal human again. I'm sure they'll give some half-assed reason in Revengence, but still, a little consistency would be nice. Then again, this is Metal Gear...

    I'm gonna try.

    Don't get me wrong, I want to like Revengence. I want for them to prove me wrong. But with the recent track record of modern game developers paired together with that generic trailer, I get the feeling this game will be average. Not great, not bad, but average.
     
  9. Cypher

    Cypher Rising Member

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    What you have described there is fan-fiction, not a game concept, as I said something like this is not taken lightly, Konami would have sunk several hundred thousand into the development of it even before its announcement let alone its release, probably alot more... As inital concept work is usually done with a skeleton team of designers and programmers and that doesn't come cheap.

    Its not some minor thing that can be overcome, communication within the layers of a game's development is one of the biggest hurdles any company can come across and has lead to more games than I can count over the past 20 years to put to the grave, just read about sonic x-treme's development, the work Grin did with Square for the ffxii game that got canned, christ I even know programmers who've struggled with SDKs for major companies before the company has said "oh that hardware, we canned that 2 weeks ago, here's the new configuration", lol Keiji Ifanune even manged to get games developed on the sly at capcom lol.

    When a game is in development they whitebox dozens and dozens of different game styles with pre-asset betas, things just to make sure the feel of the game is correct, would it be fun, could it be built upon, is it enough to float a 20+ hour game?

    90% of games people think are 60fps are actually just good 30fps games nowdays haha christ MGS4 missed 20fps at times lol.

    Tho for the life of me I can't see why you're attached to a game which all 'gameplay' footage of was a collection of pre-scripted 10 second tech demo shots, which nothing was known about other than "you can cut things... lots" they had never even explicitly said its genre. We've learnt more about it since its cancellation with them saying it was an action game with stealth elements. There was no game there, everything was flawed and they readily admit that, when you watch the interview they did you can really see they meant it with members of their staff looking pretty damn embarrassed and humbled that Kojima after saying (again) he wasn't going to work on it having to come in, and seeing the shambles they'd made of it and therefore cancel it... and then later give it to another company haha.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2012
  10. Prometheus

    Prometheus Site supporter 2016

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    The "story" wasn't the point of my example. The point was that there was a way to balance out the gameplay like they originally intended. They COULD have figured out a way to combine stealth and swordplay. They COULD have found a way to keep the game challenging. They COULD have made Rising, but they didn't.

    But lets assume I'm wrong and the game really was flawed from the beginning. Lets assume the only way for this game to get released was to remove stealth entirely and focus on the sword cutting action. I'm fine with that, as long as the game looked as good, if not better than the first trailer...

    Rising: Fast, fluid swordplay with accurate cutting. Notice the realistic way the bodies flop over once they are killed. Pretty cool. Not many games quite like it.
    [​IMG]

    Revengence: Enemies barely get hurt by the sword. Looks an awful lot like a generic action game. Guy gets cut apart at the end, but only after getting hit repeatedly.
    [​IMG]

    Rising: Once again, incredibly accurate swordplay. Player has full control over where to cut.
    [​IMG]

    Revengence: Um... yeah. The body parts exploding is cool, but the player appears to have no control over the cuts. No precision required.
    [​IMG]

    Both were trailers. Both tried to get people interested, yet only one managed to that for me. Even though the Revengence gifs are slowed down a bit, it shows the huge change in combat. A change I'm not very fond with.

    You say Rising was just a tech demo? Fair enough, but that doesn't mean I have to like the new direction they decided to take with Revengence. I liked the "tech demo" because it was more fluid and looked much better. It had more potential to be a fun, unique, and original game. And yes, I think they could make a 20+ hour game using the original build.

    I have to say though, Revengence has certainly divided the fanbase.
     
  11. Ryudo

    Ryudo SEGA!

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    ^ Konami ran into too man technical issues and could not pull off what they had in mind in the end. They went to PG and PG is able to pull off what Kojima and co could not.

    ]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2015
  12. redopiate

    redopiate Rising Member

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    ive always longed to finally play a game where samurai swords and similar sharp weapons behave like they would in reality...if not a clean slice through bone, then the blade getting stuck halfway through a skull or taking a chunk of meat out so an enemy's leg dangles from the skin, esrb be damned. difficulty set to hard would apply these physics to the player as well, resulting in need to develop techinal skill to live.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  13. geluda

    geluda <B>Site Supporter 2012</B><BR><B>Site Supporter 20

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    I refuse to assume that outside of technical problems Konami couldn't have made the game work. A tech demo or not, the tech demo still looks a lot better than what we're getting and unfortunately I won't be buying the game.
     
  14. Prometheus

    Prometheus Site supporter 2016

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    Yep. MGS:R > MGR:R

    Combine stealth, action, and swordplay, execute it perfectly and what do you get? A badass game worthy of $60. Best of all, it still looked like a Metal Gear game. What a concept.

    Revengeance still looks like a mediocre action game (not bad, just not interesting). I already typed a lot above, but I honestly don't see how they couldn't have made the original concept work. It would've required hard work, but it wouldn't have been impossible. MGS VR missions already proved that you can be a sword wielding ninja that kills people in 1-2 hits and still be stealthy. Hell, you could BLOCK BULLETS with the sword in MGS2, and yet you could still get overwhelmed and be killed.
     
  15. Vosse

    Vosse Well Known Member

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    Kojima wanted 60FPS. You can't get all that extra candy and realism with a gigantic cut in rendering overhead on what is already an extremely limited platform.

    I would've been fine with 30FPS honestly. It looks more cinematic(even though it's not 24, which would be cinematic but basically unplayable, depending on the engine)


    However, i'm sure Revengence will be great. Platinum never ceases to disappoint.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2012
  16. Shoyz

    Shoyz Member

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    Beat-em-ups are my least favorite genre (other than space shooters, I suppose), so the change in direction was a large disappointment for me. :sorrow:

    Might rent it for the ZOE demo.
     
  17. ServiceGames

    ServiceGames Heretic Extraordinaire

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    No kidding the TECH DEMO looked better than an actual game that has gone through actual development cycle beyond just a concept. The entire idea of such a demo is to rouse interest by showint what could basically never be. It's also really awesome of you to think you know better than Konami about their own property, of which they know everything and you know about 1 minute of video footage. I'm sure they decided to throw away tons of cash and reboot the title just cause they felt like it and without a damned good reason.
     
  18. geluda

    geluda <B>Site Supporter 2012</B><BR><B>Site Supporter 20

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    I don't need any more than a minute of footage to know what I like, presentation, style, etc. If Metal Gear Solid Rising had continued development I would have bought it, but since they outsourced the game and made it a generic button mashing hack and slash, I won't be buying it. So yeah, the tech demo had me SOLD, not bad for just a tech demo. And you can make anything work if you try hard enough, Konami essentially made the same game (free aiming sword action, it's the same concept) they just outsourced it to another company. I preffered Konami's vision...
     
  19. DeckardBR

    DeckardBR Fiery Member

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    The E3 and tutorial footage just released show that the game has the same features of the first tech demo. Platinum was able to figure out the solution to whatever gameplay issues where halting progress on the game.

    I say give Hideo some kudos for reaching out to another developer and getting the game out to us. I just read that Square still insists Final Fantasy 13 Versus is "in development" Theres a company that could learn a thing or two about pleasing fans and game development.
     

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