Jungle Safari for DC

Discussion in 'Unreleased Games Discussion' started by DeckardBR, Jul 7, 2008.

  1. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

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    If the power of Eclipse really was comparable to half Model 3's performance levels and presuming that I've done my research correctly, then doesn't that mean we as gamers would have been playing cartridge-enhanced Saturn titles featuring approximately 500K polygons a second? Considering this is the very figure Sega used in its own white paper as the console's theoretical output as a stock platform, was there any point developing an accelerator device? I know that very few - if any - software ever came close to reaching this quality of graphics, yet at the same time a lot of programmers (mostly within Sega's own Japanese departments, it should be noted) were not only coming close but EXCEEDING what the Eclipse may have brought to the proverbial table. Based on that particular argument, it's little surprise the US-designed upgrade never saw the light of day...
     
  2. saturn_worship

    saturn_worship Intrepid Member

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    I recently became to the REAL conclussion about the saturn upgrade.

    It's name was

    YU SUKUZI

    that upgrade made things like shenmue saturn, making psx seem like nintendo nes.

    yes i'm a fanboy, but suzuki-sama is god programming
     
  3. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

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    Yu Suzuki has confirmed in the past that Sega of Japan had no involvement with the Eclipse project, which came out of a collaboration with the US-based Away Team and Lockheed Martin. AM2 revealed that its 32-bit Shenmue prototype and Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 were being developed using stock hardware, so it's fair to say the upgrade was not part of the equation when you consider how incredible these games looked. However, because the latter has yet to be seen in public we can only speculate as to its quality. Then again, considering how much pride he appeared to take in the conversion and the amount of time invested in it (while Genki took over the Dreamcast treatment), I'm sure it wouldn't have been a disappointment.

    Also, why is Yu Suzuki held in such high regard with so-called Sega fanboys? Yes, he was responsible for producing the better "SuperScaler" titles and creating the main vision for Shenmue, not to mention all his "Virtua" games. Still, by the Saturn era his programming skills were becoming less and less prominent within AM2. If there's a genuinely unsung hero of the team, it's Keiji Okayasu - the coder responsible for Saturn conversions of Daytona USA, the first two Virtua Fighters and (supposedly) the third as well, not to mention significant portions of the original Shenmue engine (once again, this is unconfirmed... but highly likely) plus many other notable examples I can't list here in full. Some of his earlier Saturn work could have benefitted from a little extra polish, but you can't argue it was he and not Suzuki that really made a case for the system as the powerhouse Sony desperately wanted consumers to believe it wasn't capable of being. Only the programming talents of Travellers Tales, Team Andromeda, Sonic Team, Lobotomy Software or perhaps even Treasure compare in my opinion...
     
  4. Stone

    Stone Enthusiastic Member

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    I've played the Airline Pilots one - it's in a massive cabinet housing three 21" displays, with a NAOMI for each one and 'lifelike' controls.

    It's pretty rubbish, to be honest ;) There's one on Brighton Pier.

    Stone
     
  5. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

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    I remember that one now - thanks for jogging my memory! I was right to assume this is the precursor to F355 that also boasted a full control system with a separate NAOMI board for each of its three screens. I would have tested this one years back when I first (and briefly) saw it at an arcade while on holiday, but how could I resist the more tempting F355, not to mention having great versus matches on Virtua Striker Ver. 2000 as well? That was the summer before I started at university, and it's just as fresh in my mind as yesterday... with the exception of details relating to Airline Pilots, of course!
     
  6. saturn_worship

    saturn_worship Intrepid Member

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    well, it's clear suzuki maybe wouldn't write a single code line for any saturn game, but i'm pretty sure the way to work with the saturn architecture and the work for the shenmue and virtua fighter 3 engine was done by him.

    99%

    anyways, of course there were a lot of saturn talented programming demigods
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2008
  7. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

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    Since he was quoted as suggesting that only one in every hundred programmers would be able to fully utilise the Saturn's multi-processor architecture, maybe Yu Suzuki did have knowledge of coding for the system after all? Then again, Suzuki later confirmed that he was taking full responsibility for the supervision of converting Virtua Fighter 3 following extensive research into whether such a game could be reproduced to his satisfaction on the console. I'm sure he may have some experience of Saturn programming, but in terms of any significant commercial work I doubt such code exists as by this point Yu Suzuki was already being worshipped as opposed to treated like fellow colleagues within Sega.

    I know that Yuji Naka was more actively involved in Sonic Team projects before his own departure, though in terms of so-called "programming demigods" who actually did something of importance Ezra Dreisbach of Lobotomy Software is the only example that immediately springs to my mind - how many people can you think of who can push hardware more than legends such as John Carmack? From what I've been able to find out, not even the id super-coder was up to getting Quake running on Saturn. If this console was so programmer-unfriendly, why did a small group of Lobotomy's calibre manage so well? Could they have been the one-in-a-hundred Yu Suzuki spoke of, or perhaps the real answer lies with determination and a resistance to just pump out more second-rate trash as with the majority of third party developers whose greatest ambition revolved around the phrase "quick, unoptimised, single chip port from PlayStation designed for maximum profit with minimal efforts?"
     
  8. Barc0de

    Barc0de Mythical Member from Time Immemorial

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    you are underestimating the Playstation. Profits it made, but it was a fairly good machine in its own right.
     
  9. saturn_worship

    saturn_worship Intrepid Member

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    that's true Anthaemia.

    Talking of other things, i must tell that i will be always impressed by the quantity of guts the am2 guys got to do something like shenmue on the saturn.

    It wasn't only the graphical thing, but it was the importance of the project, they just spent 2/3 years on something that would see the light on a deadly-wounded in u.s.a console..

    guts people, guts
     
  10. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

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    Based on the development timeline I've put together, would Shenmue have even been remotely close to being ready for a release by the end of 1998? Had they not decided to switch development in favour of a graphically-improved Dreamcast version, can you seriously imagine Sega backing a Saturn title that late in the game (no pun intended)? As with the cancelled Virtua Fighter 3, a project of such ambition was guaranteed limited support in Japan. However, there's little chance we'd have been treated overseas to such a potential classic, regardless of who produced it. Maybe the wait proved a good thing after all? Then again, that's not to say I'd miss out should a 32-bit prototype build ever surface!

    On the subject of AM2's non-Japanese releases, does anyone else here know more about the rumour that Fighters Megamix was almost rejected in the US due to nearly failing Bernie Stolar's infamous "five star" policy? I know he personally objected to certain hidden features (the scantily-clad Candy/Honey render, for example), with the game only coming out there following certain minor alterations. Well, if there's any truth could Yu Suzuki have been put off the idea of subjecting further titles for approval in that particular market resulting from such interference with his position as lead creative? Even if a completed Saturn version did exist, gamers would have been forced to wait a few months at least for the obligatory English translation (and dubbed voice-overs, assuming speech wasn't just added following the Dreamcast overhaul). Regardless of technical brilliance, sheer scale and whose vision it was, can you honestly picture the Saturn having enough of a market share in 1999 to do Shenmue justice? If only Sega had put back their next generation plans a little while more...
     
  11. GigaDrive

    GigaDrive Enthusiastic Member

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    As I said, Eclipse represented basicly any 3D upgrade for Saturn, rumored or real. Anywhere from a small fraction of MODEL 3 performance (
    3Dfx Voodoo1, 3DO M2, PowerVR PCX1 / PCX2,
    Intel/Lockheed Real3D i740, PixelSquirt)
    upto around half of MODEL 3 (Lockheed Real3D/100) .

    But Saturn on its own was nowhere near MODEL 2 performance, let alone, half MODEL 3. There is no way that Sega of Japan's best efforts on the Saturn were close to what even a low-end Eclipse could have done in terms of non-faked polygons, amount of polygons, image rendering quality, etc.

    I suppose the only chip that would have been pointless thus not much better than stock Saturn, was the Nvidia NV2 chip. Any other decent 3D accelerator would've allowed much better MODEL 2 translations than what Saturn ever did on its own.


    MODEL 2:
    300k texture-mapped polygons/s

    MODEL 3:
    polygon calculation capability (from geometrizer): 60 million verts/sec.
    Rendered to the screen with every single rendering feature/effect on:
    1M four-sided square polygons/s or 2M triangles/s

    Concidering 3Dfx Voodoo1 and 3DO M2 (both 300k to 500k triangles/s) were not half MODEL 3 performance in the real world, how could Saturn be since Saturn wasn't close to Voodoo1 or 3DO M2 ? :)


    Sega's figures of 500,000 texture mapped and 200,000 textured mapped + gouraud shaded polygons/s are pure fantasy and make Saturn sound alot closer to MODEL 2 than it really was. Saturn could never render even proper triangle polygons and thus, couldn't handle perfect ports of MODEL 1 games. As we saw with Sega's completely re-written, downgraded translations of MODEL 2 games, the Saturn was very poor at doing proper 3D graphics. Everything had to be reengieered. Even the outstanding effort in VF2 looked very flat, with far fewer polygons in the character models and none in the backgrounds compared to the MODEL 2 arcade. I know I am being very hard on Saturn's 3D capabilities, but, they were what they were. I have a different view on Saturn's 3D games. Some were impressive concidering the machine was not ever really built for 3D.

    Although I could be wrong, from my understanding from what I've read over the years, a lot of the things Sega AM developers did were amazing software tricks using Saturn's immense 2D graphics capabilities to 'fake' a real 3D graphics engine.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2008
  12. Martin

    Martin Resolute Member

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    Sounds like you're forgetting that add-ons suck.

    SEGA should have waited until 2000 or 2001 and brought out the Dreamcast. It came too early. I just spent loads of money on the damn thing as I prefer it to my 360 for many reasons.

    Lovely machine.
     
  13. ServiceGames

    ServiceGames Heretic Extraordinaire

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    How the hell did this turn into a thread about theoretical console development and Sega Saturn codeing?? Oh the stretches some people will go through to hijack a thread.

    Anyway I for one would just love to play either Emergency call Ambulance Brave Firefighters or Jambo! Safari on any home console. *crosses fingers for Wii bundle*
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2008
  14. Barc0de

    Barc0de Mythical Member from Time Immemorial

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    I second that ServiceGames. I miss those games:(
     
  15. saturn_worship

    saturn_worship Intrepid Member

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    Gigadrive:

    "I know I am being very hard on Saturn's 3D capabilities, but, they were what they were. I have a different view on Saturn's 3D games. Some were impressive concidering the machine was not ever really built for 3D.
    "

    I half agree with that, first of all, we have to think that saturn doesn't work with triangles, and works with quads, the option that the industry finally took back in the days for 3D, but that doesn't mean quads aren't good for 3D development.

    Well, Saturn was a really powerful 2D machine, but also 3D, the thing is that mostly only SEGA knew how to do great 3D games on the Saturn.

    Just think this for a moment, Saturn got a REALLY complicated architecture, and was rushed into market with almost no decent development tools, that made most 3rd part developers look to other side, and considering the dumb situation within SEGA in those days, work for that console was very hard.

    No other console of those days was capable of doing perfect MODEL 2 games, a perfect port of VF2 on Psx or N64 sounds utopic.

    Anyways, i really agree that Sega would have some upgrade down his hand, but release it under the approval of SOJ was another thing..

    Antaemia:

    If 3rd party development and saturn sales weren't so poor, i'm sure vf3, shenmue and sonic adventure would have been released on saturn, yet a blue stinger - deep fear 2 mostly also :)
     
  16. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

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    The last wave of PAL games were all first party, but over in Japan the Saturn was still doing quite well. I remember following the many import-only titles in SSM, knowing that we'd never get the chance to play them officially here. Capcom were probably Sega's biggest supporter, and I know they were planning further releases after Final Fight Revenge. Combined with in-house efforts such as Virtua Fighter 3, Shenmue or Sonic Adventure, how amazing would the likes of Marvel VS Capcom, Red Earth and Street Fighter III have been, even if they were restricted to players with the hindsight to modify their consoles? However, what's this about Blue Stinger and a sequel to Deep Fear on the Saturn? Were these actually going to happen, or did you just make these up as further examples of what we may have missed out on? I've especially never heard of the former existing in a 32-bit form, though I know Warp briefly toyed with the idea of making D2 a Saturn project. Anyway, if support had been this great for the Saturn it's unlikely so many brilliant games would not be available outside Japan. If only Sega had waited another year before launching the Dreamcast with a totally fresh line-up of software, instead of generously "borrowing" from a range that wasn't completely outside the Saturn's capabilities had programmers taken delivery of more powerful development tools. Based on the progression from early games to later efforts such as Panzer Dragoon Saga and Burning Rangers, how better could Saturn graphics have become? I guess we'll never find out now... apart from by taking a quick look at the Shenmue prototype footage, of course!
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2008
  17. Yakumo

    Yakumo Pillar of the Community *****

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    Have you ever seen Croc on the Saturn? That game is a fully solid 3D platformer. While it may not be a great game it sure puts many 3D playstation stuff to shame mainly because it doesn't suffer from that horrid playstation paper thin looking polygons with bendy warped textures. It really is one solid looking game. It will be featured on the next Retro Core that will be released on August 10th.

    Yakumo
     
  18. saturn_worship

    saturn_worship Intrepid Member

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    I don't know how playable was, but i still want to see psx do a thing like sonic x-treme ofer alon engine, if the gameplay was as smooth as in the e3 playable "ehem" video, well, that would have kicked ass.

    saturn 3d skills are more than proved with actual playable games, no need to go to shenmue / vf3 etc ..

    burning rangers (soul reaver? anyone?) .. panzer dragoon saga, vf2, sega rally, nights, etcetcetc

    and i agree with yakumo about croc, and would add sonic jam , because the 3d world there simply kicks ass, and is one of the more solid platform 32 bits thing i have ever seen

    well, the face of some n64 and psx old fanboys when they saw the saturn shenmue video also was solid.

    ROCK SOLID. ^^

    besides that, sega, without knowing it and with their faults, got a really powerful console, very strong 2D and with really strong 3D capabilities in the good hands.

    oh, and we got silver head!!!
     
  19. Anthaemia.

    Anthaemia. The Original VF3 Fangirl™

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    Virtua Fighter 2 has a lower polygon count than its predecessor, yet most people continue to knock the original - what gives in this example? Sega Rally was definitely a much better example of good Saturn programming compared to VF2, but NiGHTS and particularly Burning Rangers are criticised for polygon glitching. Despite being one of the first games to show off "real" transparencies in fully 3D environments, the latter is seen more for its flaws than incredible graphics. Once again, I have to ask why? Some people obviously can't appreciate the efforts many - including Sonic Team - were putting into their Saturn games because of a few minor faults, which I'm sure weren't outside the console's limitations had developers been given more time and superior coding tools. Along with Croc, may I suggest we add Sonic R to our growing list of notable examples? How about Scorcher as well?

    Panzer Dragoon Saga is tougher for me to describe, since it's not always consistent with its visuals. Actually, why do I get the feeling PDS is the closest released game comparable to what AM2 planned to achieve with the Shenmue prototype? While there are some genuinely jaw-dropping moments in PDS, it's not exactly the best example for awesome graphics throughout. Could the single video of Shenmue have been edited to hide any less-than-incredible sections, or was this game always pushing its host console with such fantastic results? Even though it came from a period when AM2 had learned many techniques in Saturn programming, I seriously doubt the end product was that good all throughout.

    Of course, it's possible that I may be wrong and Shenmue actually had BETTER parts that Yu Suzuki and his team wanted to keep a secret for unknown reasons. I can only speculate, and since this is AM2 we're discussing there's a very good chance we may be in for a surprise if this one ever surfaces. As for VF3, that's another thing entirely - for all we know it could be a major disappointment, but with all the secrecy I've a very good feeling AM2 was preparing a one-two with this and Shenmue, perhaps even joining up with Sonic Team's planned Sonic World to give Saturn owners a couple of late treats before Sega moved its focus to Dreamcast preparation. Considering the faces on many Sony/Nintendo fanboys when they first saw the Shenmue footage, I'd say we really missed out...
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2008
  20. saturn_worship

    saturn_worship Intrepid Member

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    eidos also managed pretty good with tomb raider, fighting force (saturn version) with doesn't seem the crappy psx unstable one, and ninja, wich i will discuss in my next post here, because there are clearly 2 stages of that game in development.

    the first one and reviewed in sega saturn magazine firstly, and the second, and more appearing to the final result of the psx version, shown in the sega propaganda
     

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