Jaguar Tiny Toon Adventures - Plucky in Hollywood Hijinks Designs

Discussion in 'Game Design Documents' started by KGRAMR, Aug 13, 2017.

  1. KGRAMR

    KGRAMR Gaming aficionado raised by family & friends.

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    Hi! Here's another one for the thread, some level, character & object designs from one of the many versions of the unreleased Tiny Toon Adventures for the Atari Jaguar. Unseen64 has this one already but i'm posting it here properly. There's some more art and other stuff about the game out there in the hands of somebody (if you have them please scan them and post it online pretty please :D?).
    16463622_779792892186728_3171753702157307503_o.jpg 16423148_779792875520063_4731561597053490295_o.jpg
     
  2. Bramsworth

    Bramsworth Well Known Member

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    Shame the devs didn't take a lesson from the NES, Genesis, and SNES Tiny Toon games of that time and make a proper platformer. The first iteration of this game didn't at all feel like a Tiny Toons atmosphere with its ugly brown landscape, and this one, although it looks better, still doesn't feel like it would have been a worthy Tiny Toons game.
     
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  3. KGRAMR

    KGRAMR Gaming aficionado raised by family & friends.

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    Supposedly, thanks to a doc. that listed various games for the system in development by Scott Stilphen, Tiny Toon Adventures on the Jag appears listed as completed, which is weird. I do know however that a website called Beta Phase Games bought the HDDs that had data of the project years ago so, maybe they have something planned? Who knows...
     
  4. LD

    LD Peppy Member

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    Tiny Toons is given a status of:complete on a contract file Atari document Scott passed onto myself..dated 12-11-95, which raises all sorts of questions of it's own..

    But it's much like Crescent Galaxy, in that Atari simply didn't seem to grasp what made a great shoot em up and thus we had something simply thrown together that lacked any of the things that made so made SNES and Genesis games in that genre stand out...even on a technical level..no parallax scrolling on a 64 bit 2D shooter..really?.

    With Tiny Toons they had the opportunity to really showcase the Jaguar's high colour, high resolution modes,along with 2D animation strengths, but these images would of needed a large cartridge and this is Atari we are talking about...so that was never going to happen.

    Nor were they going to be able to afford artists, animators etc of the quality Sega could call apon from the likes of Disney, Konami etc..

    So we saw,as you say an ugly, brown landscape in the 1st liberation..shocking given the Jaguar colour range.
     
  5. LD

    LD Peppy Member

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    People who worked on versions of the game shared memories many years ago over on likes of Unseen64..

    This from Eric:

    "I was one of several designers hired by a 3rd party company to work on many of the animated sprites (characters) in the Tiny Toons game.

    I still have many of my files from that game, and yes I do not believe the game was never shipped. I vividly remember creating frame after frame of character animation, -we first drew everything out, scanned and then colored pixel by pixel. (no photoshop allowed, as the images would not have been as precise -for such a small/low resolution device). It was a fun project and a highlight of my career to have worked on an Atari game (even if it never got published)."

    https://www.unseen64.net/2008/10/28/tiny-toon-adventures-jaguar-cancelled/
     
  6. LD

    LD Peppy Member

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    More from Eric:

    "I don’t recall why the game didn’t get shipped, but It was probably due to money constraints …I am guessing that it was becoming evident that the Jaguar games weren’t selling great, and so the game got scrapped …even though it was pretty close to complete. I am sure a lot more money would to have been involved to actually produce and ship the game. -as well as final coding and testing."
     
  7. LD

    LD Peppy Member

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    I had a chat via email a while back with another person who worked on the game, Karen Mangum, and i asked here about her role.


    Here's the email i had back in from Karen:



    "I worked as a contract pixel artist on backgrounds. Being a contractor, i was not involved with much of the decision making, nor was I necessarily informed of various production decisions.
    I remember the game artwork was only just beginning, not very far along, and the project died. I'm not really certain why, but during my career as a computer games artist, I'd say maybe 70-80% of the titles I was involved with were cancelled at some point.

    IIRC, we were using something called the TUME tile editor. Another in-house-developed tile-based artwork program. Some were better than others.



    I was a bit more bummed about this cancellation than many others, as I was a fan of Tiny Toons, Wacko, Yakko and Dot (and -big- fan of Pinky & the Brain). The game was centered wholly on W, Y & D. I do believe that part of the reason the title was canned was the declining popularity of the cartoon, considering that a development cycle can be a year, the game would not be ready soon enough. I have to say now, decades later, it was probably sound financial reasoning.

    That's about as much as I can easily recall. I was only involved in backgrounds; the title was shelved relatively early on; and it was Yet Another Tile Editor (and I don't remember much about the workings).

    I hope this is helpful. And, I'm *amazed* that I get pings from researchers/afficionados such as yourself all these many, many years later.

    :^)

    Karen Mangum"
     
  8. LD

    LD Peppy Member

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    This was shared by Gusbucket 13 on Atari Age forum way back in 2008..

    Tiny Toons adventures
    Case History
    April 13, 1995

    The game was taken over from Julie Wade in November of 1//5. The game was is poor shape. At this time, the game had been through several revisions. The Jaguar was in it's infancy, and nobody was entirely sure what the Jaguar was capable of. The decision was made to go with twenty four bit art for the player characters and the backgrounds. There was not enough room in a two megabyte cartridge for the art requirements. The decision was made to go for a photorealistic background with two five six color graphics for the player character.

    John Skruch asked for a Taz style game when he was first talking to Telegames for the project. Telegames came up with the idea to put the player against Montana Max on a distant planet so that they could use a tile based world, and not have to worry about real live objects. This would save on cartridge space and still make for a good game.

    The game in it's present form,, programmed by Edward Salvo, and directed by Terry Grantham continued to milestone three. At this time, it was realized that the current vision of the game was not what everyone wanted to see. The project was stopped and reviewed. The photo realistic background with the 256 color character and forground sprites looked very out of place. Telegames insisted that they were doing what they were told, and the game is exactily what they were asked to do.

    The game was not what Atari wanted for the Tiny Toons game. It looked too realistic, and out of place. I took over the project at this time. The game was in great need of a new look. There was nothing to work from for the original design. The game design consisted of a small two page summary of the plot outline. There was only one map generated for the game, and this was done under protest because I has insusted that they do it. I told Telegames that they could not make a good game without planning it out on paper first to have a foundation to work from.

    Unhappy with the original two page game design I set out to write another script that was closer to the original television series. The previous design was not based on any Tiny Toons episodes. It was very much, build and engine and insert your favorite licensed character here. After many weeks, Farran Thomason and myself hashed out a eight page script for a game. This script was turned into Warner for approval and given to Telegames for them to generate maps and level designs, and make the game. A new programmer was assigned to the game. His name is David Mahaffey. David told us that he had expierience in programming games from way back in the days of Colecovision. David went through his list of accomplishments. None of the games had ever been released to the market, but he atributed this to the fact that the big crash of 1983 killed the Colecovision system before the games could be released.
    Many weeks went by. Telegames said that everything was going great. They were happy to have a new script to work from. They did not like the original idea much in the first place. They continued to insist that they had produced a game that we had asked for.

    Later, I took a trip to Texas to visit Telegames and assertain as to why they had missed a few milestone dates. It was many months now, and they had yet to meet the first milestone requirements. At this time, they said that they did not have an idea of what we wanted the game to look like. David Mahaffey and I went through the game design and came to the conclusion that they has more than enough information to do the game. It was puzzling to me that they had not gotten farther than they were in the given amount of time.

    Telegames decided to begin again on the art. We had received a few versions of the art background, with a static frame of plucky moving around the screen. This is where the game development stopped for many months. The art for the characters and the backgrounds were not up to Warner specification. The art was not colorful and bright as the Tiny Toons art in the television series. We supplied many tapes to them for example, as welll as a Warner style guide and line drawings. The style guide went through exactily how to draw each of the characters. Instead of drawing the characters, the artists working on the project decided to use frame captures from the television series. This way they could be sure that we would be happy with the art and Wartner would approve it. During the process, the images got corrupted in one way or another. some of the images would get stretched in strange and unuseable ways.

    After two years, Atari came to the decision that Telegames could not find artist that would be capable of doing Warner style art. We came to the conclusion that if we continued on the present course of Telegames finding and firing artists that we were not happy with, that the game could easily take another year to develop, if it happened at all. Susan McBride suggested that we contract an outside artist to do the art to Warner spec and give it to Telegames. After much debate and discussion, we decided on Digital Delirium, founded and owned by Tony Gascon. Tony was willing to do what it took to complete the game in a timely manner. He gave us many schedules with numerous options. We supplied Tony with the necessary items he needed to get the work done. We gve him the game design, style guide and many videotapes of episodes to work from. Digital Delirium had many questions and needs. They required many more tapes to work from, so we coordinated through Warner to get the tapes. These tapes were delivered shortly after the project had begun.

    The first round of art we got from Digital Delirium was not to Warner specification. This was determined by our art director and tiny toons fan Susan McBride. Susan had worked with Warner in the oast and was familiar with what they looked for in their critisizm of art. This service proved invaluable later down the road in the project. Digital Delirium continued to deliver art that was not on Warner specification. We asked them to start doing pencil tests of the art for our approval beofre they put them onto the computer. This way, we could approve any frames that were acceptable and alter to our satisfaction the ones that needed help. The approval and alteration time became long and upon later reflection, seemed to be a bad idea. The addition of pencil tests added about two and a half months to the long art process. This was an unantisipated delay, which stemmed from the art department having too many things to do and not enough people to do them. The two people that were supposed to work on the pencil tests got pulled from Tiny Toons and put onto other projects, namely Highlander and Aliens Versus Predator.

    By December 1994, we had delivered to Telegames the complete art for world one and two. This left one world to be completed. Telegames said that they did not need the art at that time anyway, so the delay would not cause them a problem. After nearly a year, Telegames had still not met the requirements for milestone one, even though they had the art for the milestone many months before it was scheduled to go into the game.

    Towards the end of the project, we had many problems with Digital Delirium. They had shortages of money and manpower. They threatened to stop working if they did not get a partial payment of the final miestone. We refused, and they stopped working for a couple of months. We felt that this would not affect the overall schedule, as Telegames had still not met the milestone requirements for the first milestone.

    Telegames at this time decided to give us a new milestone schedule with many provisions. The provisions were that they would give us a milestone only after we have them a fully laid out level on paper. Please note: Telegames had the art and mock up screens for many months before thay asked for this. It seemed to be a stalling tactic.

    Jeffery Gatrall, the artist assigned to complete the level designs was fired shortly after this. We were stuck. With my workload, there was no way I could do the level designs and do my normal .work. Som we decided to bring Digital Delirium in house to help us complete the gamedesign levels and tile the worlds. It was at this time, that we heard for the first time the music thjat Telegames has paid for. The music was sent to us in .WAV format. James Grunke and I reviewed the music and found it to be fully unacceptable for the game. The style of the music did not meet the style of music that was done in the Tiny Toons cartoon series.

    END of QUOTE


    Source:http://atariage.com/forums/topic/11...-and-not-twi/?hl=+susan++mcbride#entry1467481
     
  9. LD

    LD Peppy Member

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    Date: 1998/10/30
    Forums: alt.atari-jaguar.discussion

    After I finished Bubsy, Atari asked Imagitec if they were interested in
    doing Tiny Toons (I believe I would have been doing it) but after checking
    how much memory was required for map blocksets, it was discovered that we
    could have a map, some music, but no sprites or program unless we could
    increase the size of RAM – not feasible.

    Andrew Seed

    These insights, to myself speak volumes..

    Telegames and Imagitec Design were not developers on par with likes of Konami or Shinny Entertainment, developers who knew how to design and produce cartoony platform games,but they were all Atari had.

    People were struggling to understand the hardware, Ram limitations on the cartridge caused more headaches,project left to lumber on for 2 years before Atari decide Telegames couldn't find suitable artists..it's a shocking set of stories into what should of been a showcase Jaguar title.
     
  10. Bramsworth

    Bramsworth Well Known Member

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    Thanks for the posts, interesting read. This is the only unreleased Jaguar game I care about since I love Tiny Toons.

    FWIW, I saw the Atari contract thing too that referred to Tiny Toons as "complete" and I interpreted that to mean that they had successfully acquired the license. That's what the whole list appeared to be, licenses they were after and whether the acquisition process was "complete" or not. There's too many titles listed there with "complete" for it to possible mean game development, since a number were also unreleased titles that were known not to have gotten too far I believe.

    Anyway, I just want to get my opinion out there that this sounds like it was a project from hell and it's no wonder it never got out the door. Nothing met Warner's standards and anyone who's seen these games most likely also gets the feeling that the whole look of them is just lacking something. Nothing says "Tiny Toons" but rather "license grab" as Gusbucket 13 alluded to in that 2008 post. I'm not surprised they noticed how ill conceived the first side scroller idea was. Gives me a weird Bubsy 3d vibe. Just a total recipe for disaster to take characters everyone knows and put them on a foreign planet. It means zero opportunity to show any sort of sceneries that you would expect in the world those characters inhabit. I can play the NES, SNES, or Genesis games and iamgine those areas inside the cartoon's universe, But being exclusively stuck on a foreign planet? Just seriously misguided. And the second iteration of the game didn't get it much better. It looks like it was going to be focused around Hollywood sets and stuff like that? That's yet again taking these characters and instead of leaving them in the world people know them to inhabit, they put them in these areas that may as well have you playing as any other character from some other cartoon. Then again, Buster Busts Loose on SNES had you going around movie set areas, but it still felt much more familiar than the type of areas I'm seeing for either of these two attempts at a Jaguar Tiny Toon game.

    I've heard about how someone got a hold of HDDs with the game's first iteration. Hopefully they decide to let it be preserved on the internet someday, that's about all I can say.
     
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  11. LD

    LD Peppy Member

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    Very wise words there..the documents Scott and indeed others have, should always be taken in context.

    They aren't stone tablets, Atari often changed developers etc during a games development.

    They are great starting points for further investigation and there are always 2 sides to any story..that's why GTW etc have used them to track down the names on them, asked for a degree of clarification and who else might of been involved on the projects.

    Likewise any concept art, design brief just gives a great insight into preliminary design process..

    If you look at something like how Tomb Raider evolved from concept..male, Indy Jones type character, no swimming sections..

    To the eventual PC/Saturn and PS1 release..a lot changes along the way.
     
  12. KGRAMR

    KGRAMR Gaming aficionado raised by family & friends.

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    That's Beta Phase Games who aquired the TTA HDDs years ago, so maybe they have plans to do something with it, like doing a semi-complete version of the platformer build.
     
  13. LD

    LD Peppy Member

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    That's the trouble with games based on licences..everything has to be approved by Fox or Warner or whoever owns the I.P, that's before game underwent Atari's own approval process...

    I'm not a huge cartoon game fan, but i loved Taz Mania on the Genesis, looked gorgeous, really captured feel of the cartoon, ditto Atari's Road Runner coin-op, loved on C64 and ST also..

    But the Jaguar Tiny Toons game sounded as Alien as the planet it was set on.

    It's great the people who worked on the game have come forward, we get a greater understanding of what went on and i do hope the early version is preserved..but for myself, it joins a list of so many high profile Jaguar titles that in all honesty, were far better not being released.
     
  14. KGRAMR

    KGRAMR Gaming aficionado raised by family & friends.

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    For me, i want to see many of these unreleased games for the system to get unearthed by Songbird Productions, Beta Phase Games & Video61 at last from the prívate collectors that have them (at least like 25 games from the Cyberroach list still do exists).
     
  15. LD

    LD Peppy Member

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    @Bramsworth :I'm finding myself in similar boat as yourself..when i started looking into lost Jaguar games, i had hoped to find some with real potential, but deeper i dug, more it became apparent they were either never that far along or were not going to be much cop to start with.

    Jaguar versions of medicore PC/SNES/MD or 3DO games would of been just as medicore.

    Q's about Black Ice, White Noise, Tiny Toons, Conan, Legions Of The Undead put to bed now.

    I'm not a collector..

    Phear didn't do anything for the N64 as Tetrisphere.. Saw it pull in scores of 6/10 so it's never been a key title for me.

    I just struggle these days to find a lost Jaguar game really worth exploring..

    Unless footage of actual Jaguar Mortal Kombat 3 is found or the Carmack interview with him talking about Potential for Jaguar Quake..

    I find it's pretty much run it's course.

    I know Jaguar is a bit of an unknown on here..but the ratio of truly promising lost games on it to shockers, seems heavily weighed in 1 direction only.
     
  16. KGRAMR

    KGRAMR Gaming aficionado raised by family & friends.

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    I know you're saying that questions about the games that you listed are "put to bed" but here's the thing that i've found out by myself when i started researching about the system's unpublished titles:

    - Every HDD of TTA is in the hands of Beta Phase Games (as i stated 2 times already so they have plans with it).
    - A old JSII member has the remaining revisions waiting to be released of BI/WN (Revs. 18, 19 & 23 were discovered years ago).
    - Everything related to Legions of the Undead is in the hands of Rebellion Developments.
    - While the source code of Conan is lost, prototypes THAT WERE SHOWN AT WCES 1995 DO EXISTS (and they're most likely at the hands of prívate collectors). The same goes to Phear (in fact, Clint Thompson has one of them, i talked to him about that a long time ago so, most likely that he has it now).
    - If the code of the Jaguar version of MK3 doesn't pop up, somebody in the homebrew community with good skills could make it possible. Sounds stupid but it's possible (look at Hyper Fighting on the Virtual Boy for example). That could also apply to Quake (but it could be a watered down version).

    You could say that they'll never pop up but this is the internet, when things could appear when you less expect it.
     
  17. Bramsworth

    Bramsworth Well Known Member

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    So doing a little searching, I found this, which I actually saw a couple years back but forgot about.

    http://atariage.com/forums/topic/166554-new-release-tiny-toons-final-tt030-backup/page-1

    So it appears they had already released all of the contents of this HDD? It was only one HDD and it contained the last build of TTA (confusingly titled "final" but actually just refers to it having been the last build that had any work done on it) plus 3 earlier stage protos, and the Plucky demo. Is this what we're talking about, or does someone else have other HDDs of the game in an even more complete state? Sounds like whatever was available has already been put out there. Well, actually I guess only one of the builds of the sidescroller is out there for download, I don't think the other three earlier builds were shared anywhere since I've yet to see any Youtube videos of more than one build.

    In all honesty this looks like it was to Tiny Toons what Sonic Xtreme was to Sonic. Topics about it on AtariAge have people getting excited and saying that Jaguar is the BEST! and that the demo is well polished and would have been a stellar game, but it just looks atrocious and it's pretty clear the company behind its development was incapable of doing it right since they kept stalling with their milestones and they severely lacked the proper talent to get the art to look anything that matches Warner's standards. All those sprites just look hideous. It looks more like the kind of thing I'd expect from someone's fangame in the early 2000's rather than what I'd expect from a company thinking this is suitable for hitting store shelves and asking money for it.

    I'm not sure what it is about this game that's making me bash it so much haha. No disrespect meant to anyone that's personally worked on it or the people who helped recover it. It's interesting that we have the resources to be able to actually play it and understand why exactly it failed. And in agreement with Lost Dragon's sentiment, it made sense why it didn't get released. Despite all of this, I'm all for seeing whatever more exists for it (both the sidescroller and the "Plucky" iteration) regardless since it's still pretty interesting.
     
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  18. KGRAMR

    KGRAMR Gaming aficionado raised by family & friends.

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    To resume your comment buddy, the game's development was pure hell. I wanted to know why it was canned but when i found out that post on AA i didn't even knew the troubles behind the scenes of that game. Someone on eBay was selling the platformer build but Beta Phase Games told him to stop doing that. I don't blame the seller, he was just making the build avaiable to more people. Now that i think about it, i should make a thread of the alphas & betas for the Jag that are avaiable & are not for the public.
     
  19. Bramsworth

    Bramsworth Well Known Member

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    Yeah, I can't really blame him since neither person in this case has any rights to anything, plus the AtariAge topic showed plenty of people wanted a copy but missed out. I'm actually surprised how many of those sets apparently were being resold only a month or two after having been bought. Guess scalpers got a hold of them :/

    This topic is going all over the place, but I just wanna ask, are you just speculating private collectors have a Conan proto, or is it known to be out there? That game is certainly more visually impressive than other unreleased Jaguar games. Tiny Toon has this CD-i quality to it I can't put my finger on but I assume has something to do with how the hardware rendered its graphics since it's not alone. Conan though looks legit.
     
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  20. KGRAMR

    KGRAMR Gaming aficionado raised by family & friends.

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    Conan was shown at WCES 1995 so, most likely someone must have a demo cart (the one level demo) of that game ;) It was done by the same two guys who did Legend on the SNES.
     

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