Armed / Aftermath for the Sega Saturn

Discussion in 'Rare and Obscure Gaming' started by A Murder of Crows, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. A Murder of Crows

    A Murder of Crows Spirited Member

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    I'm fairly certain that Heart of Darkness only ran on devkit hardware until recently, when Yabause and Mednafen were updated to include emulation of a specific bit of RAM directly attached to the main bus (don't quote me on that, i wasn't there and heard it 2nd/3rd hand).

    the disc runs on real hardware with Pseudo Saturn, but the level doesn't load. On a mod chip/board, the game doesn't get past the license screen.
     
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  2. finsterhund

    finsterhund Active Member

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    this may be a long shot, but when are you going to release the dump of Heart of Darkness lol
     
  3. A Murder of Crows

    A Murder of Crows Spirited Member

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    The next one up will likely be Bedlam as the owner of that disc wants to sell it like he did Armed.

    Either way, i'm not the owner of the discs, and i've got a LOT of dumps to do before these have all been preserved, so I wouldn't hold your breath on another release just yet, especially Heart of Darkness which can't even load a level on consumer saturns yet.
     
  4. DSwizzy145

    DSwizzy145 Well Known Member

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    Ah okay, thank you very much for your response! :) I'd wonder if it's possible to hack the game so it could load at least the first level?
     
  5. Borman

    Borman Digital Games Curator

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    Its always a shame to see discs being sold and then the dump ending up online without the person being told, if that is what's being done. I know the Ebay auction didn't list anything about that fact.
     
  6. finsterhund

    finsterhund Active Member

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    Well, know that there is considerable demand for HoD being released online and that there are several people who are very knowledgeable about this particular game that are more than capable of also messing around with it.
    I don't see why the game not running on consumer saturns is limiting the public release of the dump or why you're releasing them one at a time but alright
     
  7. A Murder of Crows

    A Murder of Crows Spirited Member

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    Devil's advocate for a second:

    There was never any indication either way of the dump status of the disc, only that the disc was of an unreleased prototype. There was never a guarantee that the disc hadn't been dumped or that the dump wasn't going to be released. The disc had been dumped prior to my dump of it. It was even partially mentioned on Twitter a couple of years ago. In comparing the 2 images F1ReB4LL let me know that the previous dump was missing data or had an incorrect data offset, so we couldn't even use that image to rebuild the damaged audio track(s).

    The (now former) owner of the disc swung for the fences by putting it up for $5000. I'm honestly shocked anyone paid half that for this disc. I'm a huge saturn fan and preservationist, and there isn't a way in hell i could have afforded that. I can't say it didn't sting a little, having known exactly what was there and not having had a chance to have owned it for a reasonable price.


    Pretty simple: It is out of my control, i'm not the owner.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  8. finsterhund

    finsterhund Active Member

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    I assume he let you dump them with the understanding that you'd release them though.
     
  9. A Murder of Crows

    A Murder of Crows Spirited Member

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    I don't think you understand. I don't have control over the release. I'm the preservationist, not the owner. Simply taking it upon myself to release the image would violate a trust relationship I have with the owner, not to mention the fact that the owner is a friend of mine.

    The primary concern is making sure that the data isn't lost, not who "owns" it. But even then, there's around 40-50 other discs that I haven't gotten to preserve yet due to lack of time.

    Believe me, if i could have afforded to buy the whole stack and preserved them myself a few years ago, these would have all been released by now.
     
  10. finsterhund

    finsterhund Active Member

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    Well it's for sale now so idk.
     
  11. A Murder of Crows

    A Murder of Crows Spirited Member

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    So it is. That is the one I dumped for Don. Incidentally, it was also the prototype i was hoping to own myself. oh well.
     
  12. speedyink

    speedyink Site Supporter 2016

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    Yeah, I agree, all this should be disclosed in a sale ad. It looks like they did note it was dumped in this Heart of Darkness ad, but nothing about release possibility.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  13. A Murder of Crows

    A Murder of Crows Spirited Member

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    I don't disagree with you. In fact, if these were mine, i wouldn't have sold them unless i had some incredibly important reason, like a family medical issue.

    Still, i personally ALWAYS assume a proto has been dumped. We live in an age where it is quite easy to make a dump of a game. Just not always a properly preserved one. I have to question if anyone truly believes that they are buying an undumped prototype, ever. Especially on disc media. Even if the ebay ad in question had stated it was undumped, i wouldn't believe it. This ad didn't say it was undumped. Yeah, it splits hairs a bit i suppose, but from a 3rd party perspective i feel that the issue would be between the buyer and seller, and that the buyer needed to ask that kind of question if the answer wasn't plain in the ad.

    The natural assumption to me is that a copy is made just to make sure the owner gets to keep something so rare and cool in some fashion. I will never be so naive as to think that a previous owner didn't make a copy of the data or an image of the original to keep for themselves.

    If you're buying a prototype, you're buying a piece of history, not the potential to make money. Any value you're put on the object should be for the object itself alone. What is the point in paying $2500 on an unreleased game if not to only own the original? Does the value go down for you because it is dumped? If so, ask yourself why. Are you going to get money back from your "investment"? Fame?

    We are nerds/historians/preservationists at best. Few people are going to give a rat's ass about an incomplete, 3rd party, non-shmup US/EUR game on what was essentially a failed platform in those regions. Unless it happens to be of a really famous game (Metal Gear Solid? Shemue? Sonic XTreme?). There is no glory or fame out of making a dump and releasing it. You can only make money by selling it off again later or by making reproductions/copies while hording the original, but eventually someone else will dump the copy you make and release it to the world.

    The appeal of a real prototype, to me anyway, is actually owning a real piece of saturn history, especially lost history like a commercially unreleased game. It is never about the dumping of the game or trying to hoard it. I feel that all of these games and programs should be released to the public. This is also why I'll never pay $5000 for a game, prototype or not. I love the saturn but i seriously can't imagine anyone paying that much for a game, even though i value these original prototypes very highly.

    Maybe i'm a bit jaded at this point. I've known of these discs for 3 years or so now, and watched the stack get sold for $500 wishing it had been to me. I've sat hoping i'd get to own a prototype on an actual Sega Saturn branded CD-R. I've hoped i'd get to own an unreleased game that wasn't ported to or from another system. I've tried to own Delisoba Deluxe on 3 separate occasions as to my knowledge it had not been dumped before I did it, and have gotten screwed to the tune of $500 on one of them, with the seller going back on an established deal on 2 of them. I love this system, but i really can't afford to go after my goals and dreams anymore, and I can't afford to pay my friends what they want for these things.

    All i can do is try to preserve these and convince people to let the public have them.
     
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  14. Borman

    Borman Digital Games Curator

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    Because a bit rotted CDr of a leaked game has little value compared to if it hadn't been released. This has been proven time and time again. Now I assume something has been dumped, but dumped and leaked are two different things. I don't disagree with the merits of leaking games, even if I don't do it for everything myself, but it's just odd timing and all. I know I'd be angry if I had spent at much for the game to leak days later. A tad different if it had been out for years.
     
  15. finsterhund

    finsterhund Active Member

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    Yeah. the appeal for me is that it's Heart of Darkness. And Fred possibly touched it. And the ever present desire to make my collection look really freaking great. It's just a lump of plastic but there's feelings attached to it. Maybe now that it's been dumped this Don guy will realize he can't get nearly 5 grand (!!!???) for it and drop that price tag down to Finsterhund levels but I doubt it.
     
  16. A Murder of Crows

    A Murder of Crows Spirited Member

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    That value is all put there artificially. It has added value for you maybe, but it isn't a real value. The difference between placing value on an object and placing potential/hypothetical value on an object. You're valuing the potential of the IP/data more than the object itself. Does it retain that value over time? Only if it remains undumped/unleaked. So the best the public ever gets is either an elite class of people who hold and hoard these things, giving occasional videos out to build interest for the next sale, or a person (or group) saves up the money to buy the disc off someone and release it to all, reducing this artificial value significantly and making it a "lost" investment. No thanks. I get where people are coming from, and if i felt there was something dishonest about the auction i'd be pretty upset. But i have no idea what transpired between drew and the buyer, and I see that Don mentions in the ad that it has already been dumped for preservation. People should ask questions if it isn't clear.

    In the case of Heart of Darkness, the game has been properly dumped and verified. The dump was made to preserve the data and Don has stated that he's interested in getting these properly dumped and out to the public. At the same time, he still wants to sell them and get the most he can for them, as can be observed by looking at the ebay listing. He has health issues and medical bills, so i can understand.

    My end point is, if you value the data's rarity over the physical object and you bid high as a result without asking questions, you're probably a fool and I can't feel all that bad for you. You put yourself into that position. No one made you drop $XXXXX on the item.

    Again, probably jaded, and maybe a little salty. Don didn't tell me he put Heart of Darkness up for sale...i found out about it here. I have been hoping to get that one myself as the other unreleased games either belong to Drew (Bedlam) or are ports from the Sega CD (prize fighter, which is incredibly damaged, and Crime patrol) or from the EUR/PAL region (Jewels of the Oracle).


    Um, probably not. That is the copy I dumped, and he didn't let me know he was selling it. It was the one unreleased game that was left, and I was trying to get it from him myself. He put it up for sale to try to fund medical bills and to visit up here for PRGE, possibly to sell off some of his collection to again pay for medical bills. He knew what he was doing when he priced it as the game was dumped in September. He's probably banking that there are others out there like me who wants to own that kind of piece of history and doesn't care that the data is available. He also isn't likely to let me release the dump until that original sells.
     
  17. speedyink

    speedyink Site Supporter 2016

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    Sorry, my original post may have sounded a bit harsh (which is why I edited it after I posted it, and while I guess you were typing this up).

    I get it, having a backup is definitely a good thing to have. With disc based games especially, I agree, you pretty much have to guess that it's been backed up at least somewhere down the line. What isn't cool, is if someone in that chain of people who now have the data, releases it when the now owner of the disc didn't want it. I'm sure that would suck for that person.

    I'm with you, I'm all about the owning a bit of history. I would love to have a dreamcast GD-R disc (got lots of white labels, but they just don't look as cool =P). I would love to have at least one proto cartridge for every system I own. My PSP testing kit with a Square Enix sticker on it is just the coolest thing to me, because I know one of my favorite developers used it to test their games. I will never sell these things, the history of them means a lot to me.

    I don't care about internet fame or anything like that. That's all fleeting anyway. What matters to me is basically owning a piece of a history that I find truly enthralling.

    I hope you're able to get some of the discs you're interested in. I mean even being in contact with that sorta stuff would be amazing, but it sounds like you're one of the ones who'd actually cherish owning it.
     
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  18. finsterhund

    finsterhund Active Member

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    Sorry to meme, but my thoughts can be expressed via this.
    The value of such a thing being available to everyone outweighs the inflated value of it being kept in an elite circle that only those with big funds or connections have access to. Because it is a matter of class, and that's not fair. It keeps things out of the eyes and hands of people who actually care about these sorts of things.
    As much as I'd want it for myself it is my hope that some nonprofit like Museum of Play gets it. They probably have a better way of displaying their collection than I do, even if I have the plan for a small storefront style "museum" someday.
     
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  19. A Murder of Crows

    A Murder of Crows Spirited Member

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    I can't express how totally bummed out I am about regarding Heart of Darkness. I get why he needs to sell it, and I get that there isn't a way for me to afford it, but it still has me pretty much completely crushed today.

    Oddly enough, i happen to own a Dreamcast System Disc and a GD-R of NBA 2K2. It was an earlier build to what was commercially released. I haven't talked to anyone about dumping those yet as i'm mostly a saturn person.

    Thanks for the well wishes. The fact that my friend is letting me dump his protos properly is huge, and we have some plans to finish those dumps after the expo.



    i 100% agree. I also hate that inaccurate dumps of games are being made all the time. I'm actually dumping every saturn game i own in the Redump method, verifying them with F1ReB4LL, and putting them online for free for people to download and use. Maybe if this spreads around we can get those awful dumps from ISO Zone or whatever off the internet.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
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  20. Xzx123

    Xzx123 Robust Member

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    That is definitely the double-edged sword of releasing things: the security of having the data preserved and analyzed on the internet vs the value nosedive that unreleased games seem to have after release.

    It is pretty surprising that this was able to fetch $2.5k so quickly, I'd have thought that it would've taken a while to sell at even something like $1k. In any event, thanks A Murder of Crows and the original owner for releasing this!...and I guess also to the buyer for funding the release, even if perhaps inadvertently.
     

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