3D programming with Katana SDK without DevBox ???

Discussion in 'Sega Dreamcast Development and Research' started by Siggy12, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. Siggy12

    Siggy12 Member

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    Hello FamilyGuy!!!
    I don't know nothing about game programming and 3D modeling.
    I know C and C++ (more MVC++) but this doesn't allow me to understand how to start here that seems a jungle.
    all the calls, the hardware initialization ,access file system ,and many other things just throw there to make you capable to understand how to approach, but believe me is not so easy to understand for a beginner of game programming.
     
  2. -=FamilyGuy=-

    -=FamilyGuy=- Site Supporter 2049

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    You may try to start with KOS then, it's much more similar to a unix environment. I'm no professional programmer and I was capable of compiling @Mrneo240's nuQuake in minutes.
     
  3. Siggy12

    Siggy12 Member

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    Thank You for the advice.
    Anyway that's the problem FamilyGuy!!! be able to Compile is the first step but doesn't mean to understand what the code is exactly doing, also if is a good start and I'm already able to compile the katana example provided as well.
     
  4. Mrneo240

    Mrneo240 Enthusiastic Member

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    Refer to the documentation provided with the sdk. It's in easy to follow PDF form
     
  5. Mrneo240

    Mrneo240 Enthusiastic Member

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    In all fairness, the directory structure should hopefully be easy to follow and the makefile hopefully is also laid out well.

    ALWAYS open to criticisms and ideas. It's open source and community project for a reason.
     
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  6. -=FamilyGuy=-

    -=FamilyGuy=- Site Supporter 2049

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    I'm not sure I understand your post. I wasn't implying that there were any problems with compiling nuQuake. It's as easy as it gets IMO.

    On-Topic: SDKs were made with seasoned developers in mind, so the barrier of entry to understand the docs could be rather high, but once you know programming well enough, it should be relatively easy to follow examples and understand them. Maybe you could try and make a simple PC game first to learn.
     
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  7. Ivan GR

    Ivan GR Rising Member

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    Can i use debug on Katana SDK without DevBox? If yes, how to do it?
     
  8. MetalliC

    MetalliC Spirited Member

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  9. TerdFerguson

    TerdFerguson ls ~/

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    one thing out of curiosity if anyone knows,

    for xbox \ xbox 360 homebrew, maybe even PSP too, is there a homebrew SDK that everyone uses? or do they use the offical SDK software for the devkit units?

    seems to me dreamcast has old politics from early 2000s where people still like to throw around the legality argument. most projects aren't commercial, so it makes me wonder if there would be any performance boost for something like dreamsnes if it were using katana or WCE. how they got sonic2 to run using katana is really damn impressive still, graphics are nearly gamecube tier, who knows what could've been done with a few more revisions of the katana SDK
     
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  10. Anthony817

    Anthony817 Familiar Face

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    A few OG Xbox projects that I know were used with the official SDK such as Xbox Media Center. It ran very well and took advantage of the hardware.

    The problem with the Dreamcast vs other systems with homebrew is the fact that an official exploit existed in the bios that made 99% of systems able to run code that could be used on mass produced discs. You can't really do the same on other systems, so hence they didn't have the same indie type homebrew community where legally produced games were made and sold with 3rd party SDK like KOS. So in that way, there is good reason people want to make sure indie games are released with KOS so there is no legal issues.

    Nobody was charging money for XBMC or other homebrew stuff on those consoles so it was never an issue.

    Likely today people won't go after you for producing a game on an undead 20 year old system though, so who knows what the future will bring?
     
  11. TerdFerguson

    TerdFerguson ls ~/

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    meanwhile there's reproduction cartridges being sold willy nilly on ebay

    i totally understand and agree with the pro-KOS argument, but it just seems like old internet politics at this point if the objective is making cool dreamcast applications for non-commercial purposes. maybe this old internet politics also prevented some cool documentations of tricks and quirks with the katana and microsoft SDKs considering the impressive things that have been done with them. maybe in the future people will code pipelines for serial coder cables or develop some kind of addon to emulate the devkit features on a retail console so these SDKs can be fully explored, because that will never happen with the high prices and scarcity of the original dev hardware

    sucks this site is closing this sounds like a cool subject to shape the future of the scene
     
  12. TerdFerguson

    TerdFerguson ls ~/

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    maybe KOS development could benefit from a REAL homebrew exploration of the SDKs that could teach hardware specific tricks or something

    i don't really think anyone can disagree that whatever tricks were used in sonic2 are ANYWHERE in the official SDK documentations for the latest release and who knows how much more advanced the sonic2 SDK was compared to the latest version we have

    i refer to sonic2 because the dreamcast just cut through that game like butter and could handle way more stress than that with the same talent that went into that game in my opinion

    i'm just ranting here but the arguments contrary are just as interesting as i always say when i get really open ended on here lol
     
  13. Aleron Ives

    Aleron Ives Rapidly Rising Member

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    The problem is that the law is the law. It's illegal to use the Katana SDK, and if you're making games as a hobbyist now, it's possible you're hoping to do it professionally some day, and if prospective employers find out you made games using an illegally obtained SDK, they're not going to hire you. It creates a permanent black stain on your record that isn't worth it.

    Not that many people learned programming and how to create games just so they could tinker on the Dreamcast while doing something totally unrelated for their day jobs. If you're in that field, you know that using the SDK without approval from Sega is a big no-no and would harm you more than help you.
     
  14. megavolt85

    megavolt85 Peppy Member

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    Having written a game on a disk you automatically break the law, anyway to you will have to use IP.BIN with the license from SEGA.
    So what difference on what SDK is written a game.
     
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  15. MastaG

    MastaG Rapidly Rising Member

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    I agree with megavolt here, I don't think anyone in this world would give a damn about which SDK is being used.
    Like he says, even booting KOS homebrew will require the use of a license for it's IP.BIN bootloader.

    Also bringing up Sonic Adventure 2, this is really a masterpiece indeed.
    Very impressive to it running on a system with only 16Megs of ram, no swap or fast storage for that matter and a 200MHz cpu.

    Apart from the graphics design, art-work and engine, I wonder whether it would be possible to create something that is equally visually impressive using KOS and GLdc.
    Who knows... you cannot compare homebrew which created by a bunch of individuals in their free time to a commercial studio working around the clock and having access to the best SDK and internal documentation and such.

    Still Gldc is improving to this day: https://github.com/Kazade/GLdc
    So we'll hopefully see more impressive 3d games in the near future (even if they're ports).

    Also is that new joshprod racing game (on kickstarter) using GLdc?
     
  16. MetalliC

    MetalliC Spirited Member

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    it is common misbelief, you can't legally distribute any (selfboot) homebrew for Dreamcast.
    everything selfboot should contain original Sega's copyrighted code and data in IP.BIN. BIOS does explicit compare part of IP.BIN with data chunk from BIOS ROM, and will boot the game only if they exact match.
    some homebrew developer can:
    - create IP.BIN using Katana SDK tools, which is illegal because he is not legal SDK owner.
    - grab IP.BIN from some commercial or homebrew game and use it, which will be "fair use" but only for personal use. if developer will try to distribute these - it will be copyright violation.

    so, huh, there is no way to distribute DC selfboot homebrew in legal way. you can only create something for personal use.
     
  17. -=FamilyGuy=-

    -=FamilyGuy=- Site Supporter 2049

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    It really depends on the legislation. E.G., in Canada, using a small amount of proprietary information/code that's required to circumvent DRM is legal.

    Fact is, it's legally safer to use the minimal amount of proprietary code to make the game actually work.

    Now, we can debate wethers it matters or not nowadays, but the people releasing games in the early 00s rightfully covered their asses.
     
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  18. megavolt85

    megavolt85 Peppy Member

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    Actually SEGA was always loyal to homebrew developers
    If they wanted to condemn someone, then for a long time would make it especially as they have such opportunity
    KOS is good for fast start in creation of a 2D game, in the graphic plan it is far to KATANA SDK
     
  19. -=FamilyGuy=-

    -=FamilyGuy=- Site Supporter 2049

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    Yeah, they really are nice about it, and beta release and all that too. They even explicitly allowed the release of the fish life GDI, which would be unthinkable from Nintendo or Sony really.

    They were also aware of TJ&E3 beta prior to release and while they couldn't give their blessing they did not officially take any stand against it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
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  20. Mrneo240

    Mrneo240 Enthusiastic Member

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    You can easily write your own ip.bin and only use the least possible amount of copyrighted code which is covered in the USA because of the result of "Sega Enterprises Ltd. vs Accolade, Inc." from 1992
     
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