3D programming with Katana SDK without DevBox ???

Discussion in 'Sega Dreamcast Development and Research' started by Siggy12, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. Siggy12

    Siggy12 Member

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    Hello,
    I'm looking for to get in touch with some people that have experience in 3D Dreamcast Programming.
    I'm a novice about and I need help beacuse I'm curios about the potential of this machine and currently I'm studying the offical sdk R10 and unfortunately I don't have the development box, I started/able anyway to compile some of the provided katana sample and running it on emulator.
    Please don't reply saying using KOS because the official R10 is not legal (we are talking now about a 19 years old out of order system) and anyway anything that I'll do is purely for fun and not for commercial use and there is something more, I always want to learn the OFFICIAL Dreamcast SDK.
    Thank You for anyone that will reply and will help with their experience on the field about Katana Dreamcast Programming.
     
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  2. Shiva

    Shiva Destiny Phantasy Star Online Developer

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    Hey there, i got some experience in modeling for sega games.
    But im only only using a few tools from the sdk R9. might be similar?
    Though im using 3D Studio Max 2.5 with segas converter. Not sure in what direction you want to go from there.
     
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  3. Siggy12

    Siggy12 Member

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    Hello Shiva,
    Thank You for your reply,
    R10 are slightly different from R9 for example some class/call in Kamui library, in the documents Sega not recommend anyway to convert a project from R9 to R10 or at least from Kamui R9 to Kamui R10.
    Because I'm a student beginner (that don't have any experience in game developing) I' d like to start with a basic action example of the type a human 3d character that strike a punch when you push A button and strike a Kick when You push the B button and then go ahead always with more complex interactions as I become more (Hope) familiar with this kind of programming during this training path... what do You think ?
     
  4. Anthony817

    Anthony817 Familiar Face

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    Honestly I don't think anybody will give you any pushback for using official dev environments on a 20 year old system lol. More and more 3D indie games are coming out that are using the official SDK's and nobody cares. Just look at this upcoming Rally game for the DC which looks amazing.

     
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  5. Dreamcast

    Dreamcast Intrepid Member

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    While SEGA may be less likely to care about using software they created specifically for an almost 20-year defunct console, the problem is with all the technologies SEGA licensed to use within the SDK (NexGen, Trumotion, etc) whose companies may not be OK with their use in modern for-profit games. Arcade Racing Legend looks like it has that problem twofold if it plans on using licensed technologies from the official SDK AND includes "Toyota" and "Ferrari" cars without getting permission to license their likeness / name.
     
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  6. darcagn

    darcagn Site Supporter 2013, Site Supporter 2014

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    I care, not if it's for personal use/experimentation, but commercial use yes. Programmers, many of whom I consider personal friends, have worked their asses off over the years to bring amazing functionality to a great open source SDK and people who are putting the time in going the legal route are now being shoved to the side by people who are stealing the official SDK to cut corners. If you were making a legal game the right way and were competing with people using a stolen SDK would you be happy about that?

    Think about the new Midsummer demo from Duranik, looks fucking awesome but not when you compare it to this now.

    I love this console for the scene built around it. If you just want the best looking games possible don't you own a better platform than a dead 20 year old console? You don't have a smartphone? Xbox One, PS4??
     
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  7. accel99

    accel99 Spirited Member

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    Midsummer does look amazing... But it's the exception not the norm for kos. I get what you are saying but by the same flip of the coin the console has been dead 20 yrs why not make it look amazing instead of the same 2d shootem ups. IAM sorry Kos might not be able to compete with the official sdk but considering sega hasn't asked them to quit it despite probably being aware that their sdk is being used says alot.

    I think it also says that Kos isn't up to snuff for ease of use or performance if commercial releases are depending on the official sdk as a crutch for both when they could just easily head over and download Kos or simulant. I am not putting down anyone but IAM just pointing out that kos is easier and legal to obtain yet they still head to the official sdk.

    Edit: IAM not putting anyone down. IAM looking forward to things like reapri cycle because they are different and simulant looks interesting because it will streamline things for people. I just don't see why some people have a heart attack over katana sdk. People will use whatever they feel comfortable with.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
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  8. darcagn

    darcagn Site Supporter 2013, Site Supporter 2014

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    KOS has gotten tons better in the last few years. Why? Because people gave back to the project. And anyone who uses it should be giving back to the project, that's the whole point of open source. But you're right, for 3D games it's not 100% on par -- for sure. The community needs to put more work into that.

    But now the message being sent is that if you want to make a quick buck you can just steal the SDK and risk legal issues, that yes, almost certainly won't come, but you give back nothing to the scene, anyone who wants to follow morals, the law, the spirit of what it means to be part of a homebrew scene, and do things the right way can just deal with having an "inferior" game. There are so many indie games now it's impossible to buy them all unless you're seriously collecting, now anyone who makes a legit game can have their title passed over for a stolen SDK game.

    All that hard work Duranik did to make Midsummer look better than anything else that's ever been on the indie market is now for shit, it doesn't look nearly as good by comparison to those who cut corners, and the sales will certainly be less because of these other titles. People in the past have held up Sturmwind as a top tier looking game, that got it the hype and sales it deserved. Midsummer probably won't enjoy that kind of hype now, and now there's a huge incentive to do things the wrong way.

    Personally I am teaching myself DC programming in my spare time, one day releasing a physically published game is a goal for me (not that it will ever for sure happen), this is personally really discouraging to me.


    From the other angle, way too many shit ports and really basic looking stuff that doesn't belong on a platform like DC are being published too, I really hope the DC doesn't become an indie shovelware platform.
     
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  9. accel99

    accel99 Spirited Member

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    While I understand your concern i will say amazing products will stand out. Duranik for example have nothing to fear. Their art always looks top notch to the point that midsummer is looking better than some 3ds title( looks better than shinobi 3ds).

    Reapiri cycle looks nice and mysterious and that's something I like in games , almost like return to zork. Good products will always stand out. Only because katana sdk doesn't mean it will look like dead or alive 2, developers during DC time proved that. Then there's titles like dux which were rehashed forever. Gunlord was awesome as well.

    Don't be too discouraged, if you can make something great it will stick out to some people. Heck personally IAM still waiting for someone to make a beat em up like spikers battle/slash out. Would purchase something like that in a heart beat Kos or katana irrelevant.
     
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  10. Anthony817

    Anthony817 Familiar Face

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    Yes, I own a OG Xbox, 360, Xbone and Jailbroke PS3 and a modern gaming PC. It isn't the point though. I am by no means a graphics whore, but I do love to see something pushing the console to it's absolute limits graphics wise, or at the very least more so than the 2D games we always get from indie devs. I am of the mind that the DC died too early and besides Shenmue and a few other games, we didn't get to see truly polished games made to squeeze out the last ounce of the graphics from the system.

    I respectfully disagree. Midsummer is going to be a hit like Sturmwind was. It is just that good looking. I don't think that 3D racers are going to be taking away from the sales of that game. It is a genre we haven't seen a super ton of with indie games. It appears to be a game like Shinobi. You can;t compare it to a racing game, different genre and different fans. Sure a lot of racing fans might also like hack and slash sidescrollers, but I don't think it will take from it.

    I get that you have such an investment in the livelihood and well being of KOS, and DCEmulation has been the home for it basically forever now. I think that if we still haven't gotten the tools matured enough to be able to push out retail quality graphics, we can't blame it on the community for not trying. People working on it and contributing to it are doing it in their free time for the love of it. It may never get to that point to have super advanced graphical features. We can't say what the future will hold.

    I just think that as long as people want to bring over other advanced 3D game ports from PSP and Mobile platforms, they can't rely on KOS because they may never get to come over if we wait for others to do it. Sure they maybe could add to the SDK themselves and get it to that point, but who is to say they are that advanced enough with writing new graphical API's for KOS? If I remember correctly, JoshProd is paying the developers of these game who originally did them for other systems, and having them port the game over. He isn't paying them to add to KOS unfortunately. So, I just think it is little use getting all worked up about it as it just can't get that quality of games ported with that SDK than we would like.

    I will be the first to root for KOS, I have nothing against it at all and love it to death for what it has brought to the system and has been instrumental in keeping our beloved console alive. It is just unrealistic to expect them to be able to port over that kind of quality game over with that SDK despite being developed for almost as long as the DC has been out itself. If it isn't able to do it after all these years, then it just is a fact of life. No reason to not want more advanced games to come over to the system.

    And, just so you know, I still play 2D games on my modern Gaming PC, so I will still do the same on my Dreamcast as long as great games continue to come out like that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  11. MetalliC

    MetalliC Spirited Member

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    are you sure ? I'd say KOS nearly dead few last years. IMO there is just cosmetics changes here-there, but no real progress. the bugs reported during last few years still not fixed, etc, etc.
     
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  12. megavolt85

    megavolt85 Peppy Member

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    I completely agree with @MetalliC , KOS full of holes and contains a set of mistakes, and on all inquiries of Blue Crab says that everything works for it well
    I found a set of mistakes and even sent the disassembled piece of BIOS'a Blue Crab, but nobody began to change anything
    After closing of assemblergames I will definitely not pass to dcemulation, to me the forum the administrator of which is uninteresting slows down development of the project owing to the beliefs

    @Siggy12 if your project is free, then use official SDK, it is really good

    In comparison with other homebrew Arcade Racing Legend really looks good, but in comparison with commercial games it is very far from an ideal
     
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  13. Siggy12

    Siggy12 Member

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    I was thinking to be clear in my main post.... :(
    Thank You all Guys (especially MetalliC You really ROCK MAN congratulation for Your EMU is simply Awesome) but the fight between KOS and Katana really not interest me and more it doesn't lead me nowhere..
    I'm a programmer and I want to start to understand how to develop a game for Dreamcast with OFFICIAL KATANA SDK !!!!
    I DON'T CARE which is better between KOS and KATANA my GOAL is to learn SEGA KATANA SDK.
    I'm asking help to someone that can help me with some stupid 3d demo that have some action using buttons for example...
    "to start with a human 3d character that strike a punch when you push A button and strike a Kick when You push the B button and then go ahead always with more complex interactions as I become more (Hope) familiar with this kind of programming"

    can someone help me in this journey ?
     
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  14. Mrneo240

    Mrneo240 Enthusiastic Member

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    What help do you want? There's tons of docs and the tools are industry standard.

    Are you asking how to write a game?
     
  15. Mrneo240

    Mrneo240 Enthusiastic Member

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    I will miss you. Thank you for all of your help and knowledge. Thank you so much. I hope we meet again one day
     
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  16. megavolt85

    megavolt85 Peppy Member

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    I know that you have an account on dreamcast-talk, we will meet there
    also I can always be found at the forum dc-swat
     
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  17. Siggy12

    Siggy12 Member

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    Hello MrNeo !!
    yes!!!! I'm asking for a real basic example that have some action with buttons for me to start approching Dreamcast game programming, is not so easy for a beginner start with only the documentation about things like this I'm starting right now seriously....
     
  18. Mrneo240

    Mrneo240 Enthusiastic Member

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    Most of the 3d examples also show button input
     
  19. Siggy12

    Siggy12 Member

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    OK!!! they show button input... but let's say I want to start a clean project from scratch without mess with the examples so that I have clear what to do with the library provided, it seems to me that nothing help about this, have You some advice about ?
     
  20. -=FamilyGuy=-

    -=FamilyGuy=- Site Supporter 2049

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    I applaud your enthusiasm, but it seems to me like you don't know much about programming.

    If so, you should think about learning the basics (and intermediates) of programming in C before you attempt a DC game.

    Baby steps.
     
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