10 PC Games That Should Have Been Ported To Dreamcast...But Never Were

Discussion in 'Unreleased Games Discussion' started by Jord9622, Sep 21, 2017.

  1. Jord9622

    Jord9622 Site Supporter 2014 Site Benefactor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    44
    [​IMG]
    http://www.thedreamcastjunkyard.co.uk/2017/08/10-pc-games-that-should-have-been.html

    Great article above by The Dreamcast Junkyard. Two other games that didn't make the list include World of Warcraft (Bernie Stolar was in discussions with Blizzard about this being a console exclusive) and Grand Theft Auto III (I realize this was technically a port on PC, however, Bernie was also in discussions for this to be a console exclusive).

    There are some misconceptions out there about his strategies, put out by a disgruntled developer. I'm doing my best to clear those misconceptions up. Bernie did NOT ban RPGs, and when he arrived there in 1997, SEGA had lost $267.9 Million USD on the Saturn (as well as the other seven systems/add-ons* they were still selling at the time) and they had to move on.

    Dreamcast saved SEGA from bankruptcy. The only reason a DVD player could not be included was, SEGA simply could not afford it. It is thanks to Bernie that the Dreamcast had a modem, SEGA of Japan did not think online game-play was important, he did, he saw it as the future. He argued for the modem to be there and succeeded.

    Bernie, who has always had an eye for content, is also the one who discovered Visual Concepts and got them to make SEGA's 2K sports games to compete with EA. The 2K brand is still alive and well today.

    *Those seven systems/add-ons were Game Gear, Nomad, Pico, Genesis, SEGA CD (production ceased in 1996, however, the remaining stock was still being sold), 32X, and in some parts of the world, the Master system.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
    Esppiral, wombat and KGRAMR like this.
  2. f2bnp

    f2bnp Peppy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    384
    Likes Received:
    29
    World of Warcraft on the Dreamcast? You do realize that Bernie Stolar left SEGA before the US launch in September 1999 and WoW was announced in 2001 and finally released in late 2004, right?

    Of the games on that list, Outcast was actually considered for the Dreamcast. I remember reading an interview with the devs and they said that they were trying to find ways to port it using WinCE and accelerating some features using hardware on the Dreamcast, as well as a supposed Direct3D patch at some point which never materialized because the game sold poorly apparently.
     
    Jord9622 likes this.
  3. AUSTIN PEYTON

    AUSTIN PEYTON Gutsy Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    236
    [​IMG]
    Too bad Electronic Arts left Sega after the Sega Saturn
    It's too bad a Diablo port never made it to Saturn with netlink capabilities
     
    KGRAMR and Jord9622 like this.
  4. Jord9622

    Jord9622 Site Supporter 2014 Site Benefactor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    44
    Yes, I am fully aware. It was very early on. The game wasn't even referred to as "World of Warcraft", it was referred to as "WarCraft Online". The discussions were similar to Phantasy Star Online. More about this will be discussed when we speak with the Dreamcast: Collected Works KickStarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/darrenwall/sega-dreamcast-collected-works?ref=profile_created

    Here is the contributor list below (more coming soon!):

    Dreamcast KickStarter.png
     
  5. wombat

    wombat SEGA!

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,676
    Likes Received:
    323
    Learning something new everyday, imagine in a perfect world SEGA getting (console)exclusivity on Grand Theft Auto III and WOW. I was already excited for reading everything that's going to be in the book, now my interest is peaked even more.
     
    Jord9622 likes this.
  6. coal stepping

    coal stepping Site Supporter 2014

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2012
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    30
    If I remember correctly when vannila wow came out it needed an amd athlon and 256 MB of ram and a 128MB vd card don't think that was gonna run on the DC
     
    Jord9622 likes this.
  7. pato

    pato Resolute Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Messages:
    932
    Likes Received:
    119
    There are quite a few legends over the Max Payne DC port, some people say that there was not even a Katana devkit, others say that there was one devkit, then there is this one from the DC Junkyard where a developer said that he has never saw DC code on it, but I think there was a fourth one that it didn't get past a test stage as the developers were focused on finishing the PC version first.

    System Shock 2 was cancelled after roughly a year of development, Vatical last news about this port was in 2001, so it was indeeed because of the DC death thanks to the PS2, I'll go back into the leaked stuff later, but at least for what I did back at the time( I was the one who uploaded the first gameplays), there was only two .exes from august to november with no noticeable change from it's rough tech state.

    About Bernie Stolar, it's a controversial thing, Victor Ireland from Working Designs had a clash with him since the early days of the US Playstation because he had a hate for 2D Games, and IIRC, the reason that Rayearth for the Saturn took so long to translate was also because of Stolar bringing such ideal to Sega.

    He was hired by sega in July 1996, that would give him time to fix the issues regarding the lack of proper documentation for the west developers and the whole bad situation in sales, unless it was something that it was not on his care, as SoJ had been clashing with SoA in regards of the Sonic X-Treme, he gave the green light to STI to use the Nights engine that created the big mess as the original programmer, Yuji Naka, threatned to quit Sonic Team if they continued developing with the engine.

    His work with the Dreamcast was wonderful, but having been outside of the west market for more than a year made it a big bad impression, had they supported Saturn until the DC release, things could have been way different.
     
    Jord9622 likes this.
  8. Jord9622

    Jord9622 Site Supporter 2014 Site Benefactor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    44
    Agreed 100%, looking at that PC games list got me thinking too, imagine WOW, GTA III, Outcast, Commandos 2, Max Payne, Aliens Vs. Predator, Half-Life, and System Shock 2 - all in that short period of time! :)
     
  9. Jord9622

    Jord9622 Site Supporter 2014 Site Benefactor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    44
    Scott MIller might know the answer to this one. Scott was integral in making Max Payne a reality. 3D Realms published Remedy's first game, Death Rally, and he helped them with both "Bullet Time" and naming Max Payne. Not only that, he negotiated the IP's sale to Rockstar/Take Two! I'll have to ask him. Its worth noting that "Bullet Time" was implemented before "The Matrix" during 1998. Will have to also reach out to the Kingsley brothers at Rebellion re: Aliens Vs. Predator, they may have answers there too.

    System Shock 2 on DC would have been incredible! This one really hurts, as does Commandos 2 and Outcast, well really they all hurt :(

    See, this is where all the confusion gets started...Victor might be the one running around saying Bernie hates 2D games and RPGs, I don't know if he is or not, regardless, this rumor simply isn't true. This has more to do with personality clashes and less to do with the games themselves. Bernie is a very direct person and straight shooter, he does not play mind games (no pun intended), and he is a very loyalty based guy. I cold-called him when I was 16 and he actually took my call and let me meet with him at his office in San Francisco...he didn't have to do any of that.

    I've never met Victor, however, if he is spreading rumors, well, in my opinion, that's not a great personal quality to have...

    Yes, Hayao Nakayama hired him and believed in him, I've had the pleasure of meeting Nakayama-San and he is another great guy. The problem between SOJ and SOA, I believe had more to do with Okawa. From what I understand, Tom Kalinske ran into a lot of the same issues which Bernie had to deal with. I believe Kalinske almost got the Saturn to essentially be the N64 architecture, he's the one who pushed the Silicon Graphics hardware to SOJ and they kept turning it down, saying it wasn't good enough. I think Tom is the one who suggested SG go to Nintendo right after that, and obviously that turned out really well. With regards to getting more Saturn documentation for developers, personally, I don't believe that would have helped much in the States. The problem was much deeper than that and frankly it was too late. Bernie and I did an interview with Arcade Attack earlier this year, where he goes far more in-depth about this.

    They really couldn't afford to though. All the funds they had, needed to go to Dreamcast, or they would have went bankrupt. Bernie goes into the numbers in the aforementioned interview. The turnaround that he, Peter Moore, Chris Gilbert, and team pulled off was nothing short of extraordinary!
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
    pato likes this.
  10. HiSpec

    HiSpec Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2017
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    2
    That's not really the case, to be fair. Joe Miller* goes into more detail with an answer that makes a lot of sense:

    The potential deal with SGI, as I recall, was being discussed in early 1993. The Saturn would be released at the end of 1994.. The N64, on the other hand, wouldn't be released until the end of 1996, and this delay did not turn out good for Nintendo in the end (it allowed the PS1 to get a strong foothold, and the N64 ended up selling even less than the Saturn in Japan). It very well could have been even more disastrous for Sega.

    * http://www.sega-16.com/2013/02/interview-joe-miller/
     
    Jord9622 and pato like this.
  11. pato

    pato Resolute Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Messages:
    932
    Likes Received:
    119
    Very interesting interview, didn't know that Stolar felt that Saturn was a dead product by day 1, and conceived famous names in the industry.
     
    Jord9622 likes this.
  12. looptranzit

    looptranzit Spirited Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2016
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    49
    Oh man, Outcast. One of my all time favorite action adventure games.

    When I heard it was coming to the Dreamcast I was excited. Then screenshots of Outcast 2 materialized for the PS2 and once again I was stoked. What a letdown when none of it materialized. At least the original devs have it back in their grasp now and are releasing a remaster, Outcast: Second Contact, in fall 2017 (PC, PS4, Xbox). So looking forward to this.
     
    Jord9622 likes this.
  13. pato

    pato Resolute Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Messages:
    932
    Likes Received:
    119
    I recall that at one point Kalinske had a interest over the M2, wanting it to be the next Sega console, but the plans fell quickly, was Stolar aware of Kalinske work and problems with SoJ and that's why he convinced Nakayama that the console was a deadbeat?
     
    Jord9622 likes this.
  14. Jord9622

    Jord9622 Site Supporter 2014 Site Benefactor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    44
    You left out Joe Miller's first sentence in that paragraph though which illustrates my point: "I think the problem with the SGI opportunity was that there may have been a touch of NIH (Not Invented Here) in the reaction." - This is what I'm referring to. They kept submitting endless changes, i.e. they had no intention of ever working with them.

    I agree with your second paragraph from a business/financial standpoint. However, when I said "obviously that turned out really well", I was speaking mainly from a technological standpoint. I realize I will get some disagreement here, however, I feel the N64 was the most impressive of the era on a multitude of fronts (in a lot of ways due to the SGI chipset). Ex. The first-party games themselves, 3D Analog Control, 4 Player Split-Screen Gaming, and I felt the Anti-Aliasing/look when viewed on a CRT was beautiful. All of which in some way or another made possible by having that architecture.
     
    HiSpec likes this.
  15. Jord9622

    Jord9622 Site Supporter 2014 Site Benefactor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    44
    Yes, he was aware of the situation when he got there. He'll go into more detail in the book :)
     
    pato likes this.
  16. Jord9622

    Jord9622 Site Supporter 2014 Site Benefactor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    44
    Me too! :) Fresh3D is one of our ZOOM Platform partners, they do amazing work!
     
  17. Jord9622

    Jord9622 Site Supporter 2014 Site Benefactor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    44
    Thanks for reading the article, pato!
     
    pato likes this.
  18. HiSpec

    HiSpec Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2017
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    2
    I did leave out that first sentence of the quote because I wanted to avoid Miller's speculation and focus on the specific concerns of SOJ. There is enough speculation from Kalinske as it is.

    The facts, as reported by Miller, are that SOJ were concerned that SGI would not be able to bring their chip to market efficiently. Sega was a very experienced consumer hardware developer, while SGI had zero consumer experience. No amount of revisions were going to change that.

    In the end, Nintendo went with the SGI chip and it ended up costing them a year-long delay due to problems with the chip. The N64 was originally scheduled for release at the end of 1995, but this was pushed back to the end of 1996, two years after the Saturn and PS1.

    Although Kalinske has worked very hard to paint SOJ as incompetent here (he claims they rejected the SGI chip because they were jealous of SOA's success - read any account from Nakayama and you'll know how unlikely that is), from Miller's account it does seem like SOJ made a well-considered decision, and in the end it does seem like their concerns were valid.

    Ultimately, Kalinske is trying to build up a personal legacy, which makes some of his accounts questionable. I'm happy that we have accounts from people like Joe Miller to temper these.
     
  19. itsthinkingstil

    itsthinkingstil Rapidly Rising Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    60
    Jord9622 likes this.

Share This Page