saturn Model search help

Hey guys

I'm looking for a japanese saturn that has a motherboard and case that matches the US April 1996 saturn. Does anyone know of one? I'm most interested in the oval HiSaturn variants, but will take a grey saturn as well.

 

US April 1996 means nothing, or, well, it would mean nothing if I wouldn't be building a serial number database:
http://evilboris.sonic-cult.net/saturn/index.php?&type=USA&page=2
So, April 1996 North American models had a serial number AE62*, meaning they used VA2 motherboards (aka VA SG). Since VA2 and 3 are interchangeable (only difference is that one uses SG ram, the other uses SD ram), and since VA4 and 5 are the model 2 equivalents of VA2 and 3 respectively (same motherboard, just 2-3 resistors and the memory button removed), you are looking for any machine that uses VA2 to 5 boards, whether model 1 or 2.

For Hi-Saturns you are looking for machines with serials starting with BC52* or B62*. For grey and white saturns, there are shit loads of choices due to the amount of different manufacturers, the easiest way is to just hit ebay for grey and white saturns that have pictures of their serials, and break down the hardware revision number from them. The syntax is {manufacturer code - manufacturing year - [9 if the unit is refurbished] - hardware revision type - serial code}. Manufacturer code can be a single number, single letter, or two letters.

So for example
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sega-Saturn...=item4862006c97&ssPageName=RSS:B:STORE:US:101
serial B64 059753 = manufacturer B, mad in 1996, hardware revision 4 (VA4, identical to VA2), and serial 059753.

 

Well, my understanding is that a white saturn is immediately out of the running: they all had Round buttons, and the april 1996 is oval buttoned.

Furthermore, april 1996 boards have a breakout board for the controllers, so the VA4/VA5 boards can't really be considered equivalents as they won't fit in the april 1996 case. I suppose i should explain my purpose at this point: My favorite US saturn is the April 1996 Oval button system because it is so unique among saturn systems, at least internally. I'm hoping to find an import system, preferably a HiSaturn, where i can do the same kinds of mods i've done to my April 1996 systems.

So, the case has to be an oval button case and needs to have a breakout board for the controller ports in order for it to be correct. Does this information help?

 

Like I said, VA4 and 5 are IDENTICAL to VA2 and 3. Same board serials too, they just skipped like 3 resistors on them, as they were not needed due to the led and memory reset being removed. So you can replace a VA2 board from a model 1 with a VA4 or VA5 from a model 2. Everything is nearly identical internally, including the power supply, the controller board, the cd drive, etc.

Oval/round button case is down to aesthetics only. The internal hardware can be the same.

 

Perhaps my original intent didn't come across correctly then, and if so i apologize and will try again: I'm looking for an oval button japanese saturn, preferably the hisaturn, that has a motherboard AND case mold that matches the US April 1996 system. This means no difference at all (as in, no removal of the access LED or lightpipe, no round button cases, controller daughterboard exists, etc).

Based on my criteria, no round button saturn will ever work, and as such neither will round button variant boards unless the access LED is still included.

My goal is to place my current april 1996 board in to an oval case that will fit it, and to find a matching board and case that will allow me to do the same mods that i've done on my april 1996.

I have to disagree with your use of the word Identical here....the VA4 and VA5, because the LED is missing, is simply not identical at all. But your work has led me down the right path (B62 for HiSaturns, a lead on what to look for in grey saturns), and i'm incredibly happy that someone else took this on. I tried to do something like this many many years ago on segaxtreme and simply didn't get all that far with it.

 

All the board serial numbers match, both the 171-x (for PCBs) and 837-x (for full circuits) numbers, and they are both called the same (VA SG and VA SD). The service manuals also grouped them together.
As far as Sega was concerned they were identical. Otherwise they would've at least add a revision letter to the board serials, but they didn't even bother with that.
For modding purposes they are also 100% identical. Though as long as you know what you are doing, all NTSC boards are identical - only the position of certain jumpers and test points are different.

Of course, if you are adamant on the oval buttons, only the model 1 will do, no getting around that. But I consider that simple aesthetics.

I've seen that old thread at segaxtreme, and I have to say that it went in the completely wrong direction. I had to write up the numbers for 60-70 different machines (half of them which I opened myself) to even begin to figure out how to properly classify the data.

 

Again, they are not identical. by definition, identical means no differences at all. For my purposes, i need models with no discernible differences (memory change is fine, but nothing else on the case or board can be different), so the removal of the memory clear button, the resistors, and the access LED immediately make those boards different from the ones i'm looking for specifically, and therefore are completely useless for my needs. Also, you admitted that there is a different id number between these models: VA2/3 and VA4/5. That makes them different, doesn't it? Even in sega's eyes?

To be perfectly frank, and with all due respect, what you consider aesthetics really doesn't come in to play with what i was asking from the beginning. As stated in the first post, i am looking specifically for a Japanese system that has the same motherboard AND case as the april 1996 US version. the key there are the words "same" and "case". Trying to play semantics with what i am specifically looking for just because you don't classify the boards differently doesn't help me find what i am looking for and isn't relevant to either my request for assistance or my search. Again, i appreciate the work you've done, and i also appreciate the answer you provided, but you're arguing with me about what i need and am looking for, and you keep playing with the word "identical" as if you can change its meaning to fit what you FEEL it means relative to this topic. No matter which way you look at it, "nearly identical" isn't the same thing as "identical", and yes, aesthetics happen to count...very seriously i might add...towards what i am in need of.

I'm sorry you feel that way. At the time, no one else was doing anything, and the information was still correct, regardless of how you feel about the direction it was going. I had only US saturns to work with where i could see the boards themselves. There were a lot more plans involved that never really happened due to getting stalled with import systems and the lack of interest and information. But at least i tried, right?

 

VA# is a version identifier they used for "most" of their hardware but it wasn't an ironclad rule, more like just a generic identifier.

The line between VA2/3 and 4/5 is pretty blurry for numerous reasons. For one, neither of them are named as such on the boards: for example, a VA2 and a VA4 board will both say VA SG, while VA3 and 5 both say VA SD. If you inspect the boards themselves, they'll have the same internal numbers: my PAL VA3 says 171-7131A and 837-12135, and so does my PAL VA5. NTSC boards follow suit.

The VAx numbers are only found in the serial numbers for those.

And that's not completely reliable there either, because there are plenty of model 2s that identify themselves as VA2 or 3, and they are missing the power led and the memory reset button. So the cause for an increased VA number may be something completely different that we have yet to find.

Maybe the service manuals could put more detail onto the exact difference but the ones I've seen before weren't too verbose on such details. So most likely they just say that VA5 has no led, memory reset, and missing resistors x and y.

Also, VA numbers are for the boards and the circuitry, not the rest of the metal/plastic shell and other components they are enclosed with.

You mentioned that you want a unit on which you can do the same mods as your VA2 usa Saturn. Any machine between VA2 to 5 fits that criteria, unless the CD access led and the memreset button are the linchpin of your plans; and the lack of LED is trivial because it can be added back so easily (about the only difficulty is sourcing a light tube for it, personally I just route it to the top of the cd tray so it can illuminate the entire top of the machine, so you can actually see the damn thing lighting up).

If you really want to be an asshole about small details, then no, no Japanese machine will have the same (ie. "identical" identical) case as a US one: they are coloured differently. Including the Hi-Saturn (well, the bottom of the case would match but not the top).

From what I recall you were busy classifying machines by pin counts and the dates in the inner case, which are completely superficial because most components where made at different places at different times. Also, all the cd boards state their identifiers on them very clearly, which gets you more info than pin count on chip x.

 

Look druid, pretty much since i asked the question, you've been coming across as kind of a dick, starting from where you said that an april 1996 system wouldn't mean anything, right down to your criticism of my failed attempts to get something similar to what you've accomplished done 11 years ago.

Maybe i'm being too sensitive, but when i correct my request to clarify that i need oval shaped cases for this mod, why is there a continued questioning of what i am trying to find out or offering of opinion that round vs oval is just aesthetics? I'm sorry i wasn't more clear about the fact that i need an oval case in the first post...i truly thought it was properly implied by the fact that i asked for Oval HiSaturns or GREY japanese saturn systems....then there is an assumption of what kind of mod i'm doing, and that motherboard wise they are all the same....well, i'm doing a case mod, not a motherboard mod, but thanks anyway.

I knew you were the one to ask, but i really didn't expect this kind of reaction to such a simple question. I'm not trying to be an asshole, i'm trying to get you to stop being one, listen to what is being asked, and instead of being so self important, take a look at what i was actually asking for the whole time, and be accurate in your answers.

Identical means the same. if a motherboard is identical, then there are no differences, be it resistors or buttons or leds. you are using the word incorrectly almost every time you use it, and tried to justify your use each time, which detracted from what i actually was looking for: an oval button case and button swap that will take my current motherboard and allow me to mod its motherboard in the same way i have my current one done, on top of the case mods i want to do. I needed whatever japanese models exist that use a case that a US 1996 motherboard would fit in to and still have oval buttons.

i pretty much feel like you were being stubborn and dickish for no reason. Yes, at the time, i classified models by pin count, modboard compatibility, and manufacture date on the bottom of the case, which i quickly learned didn't happen for every region of saturn anyway. At the time, all that mattered was 20 pin vs 21 pin to determine what modboard to get.

so yeah, my project sucked, never finished, was headed in the wrong direction, and probably helped no one but me. but again, at least i fucking tried to get some info out there.

 

Perhaps it would help if you'd specify what type of mod you are attempting that absolutely requires that specific type of machine. I am not aware of any type of mod, that a model 1 VA SG/SD can do, that a model 2 VA SG/SD can not do. As a matter of fact I'm not currently aware of any modifications that any model 1 can do, that any model 2 cannot do (outside of some esoteric stuff that would only matter to you if you wanted to, say, make a HDD loader for the machine).

So why don't you enlighten me.

When they made the hardware is not the same as what hardware they made.

I just said that you were going in the wrong direction with it. I admit that my social skills are subpar but I don't think criticizing someone elses work, in a civil matter, is "coming across as kind of a dick".

 

Both of you are wasting far too many words on something the first post is more than clear enough about.

All he wants can't be any simpler, a Japanese case that the board he already owns will fit into. There's no reason to go out and buy a model 2.

 

They might even use different ICs internally. I have two machines of the same VA number that use different VDP2, or different video encoder, etc. Some of them are assembled just 8 days (and less than 600 units) apart.

That wouldn't explain why there are some VA2/3 hst-3220s around though. I've seen a bunch, and they are missing the memreset button at the very least. I've a theory but I'll need to see one unit opened up to test it.

 

If you really must know, i'm doing some case swap stuff between an april 1996 US saturn, which is an oval button system (and has the manufacture date on the bottom of the case, which is what i was basing the whole FAQ on btw) to get some different case button and general case color combinations with my already modified motherboard. I would love to get both a HiSaturn and a Grey saturn case mixed to be able to use my 21 pin modboards as well.

Right, but i have run in to many april 1996 US systems, and so i can tell you with quite a high level of certainty that US april 1996 systems all have essentially the same hardware internally, at least as far as my criteria counts: Motherboards that fit any other US april 1996 case, power supply, and cd-rom board.

And again with being a dick. Who the hell are you to judge which direction MY project was going in? Yes, you were far more successful in your project and there were similarities, but i feel we had very different overall goals. You weren't there back then. You've not had a single positive thing to say about it. You say with some form of authority that i was going in the wrong direction, instead of saying that you FELT like the direction might have been wrong. To me, this is being a dick.

No, he doesn't. He failed to read the original question. I was being quite specific about the fact that only oval button cases would work, and nowhere did i state that i only wanted to switch motherboards.

Not quite so for US systems. But again, you guys seem to assume that i'm looking up the date by the case molds, and not by the Manufactured in sticker on the bottom of the system. Believe it or not, the US manufacture date sticker is a fairly good indicator of what hardware you'll find inside of a US system. I found out rather quickly that the same information doesn't apply to JPN or PAL machines however, which is part of the reason why my own project was abandoned.

Not likely in the US. All the saturn systems i have owned, including the 8 or so in my closet right now, follow the date of manufacture sticker pretty consistently:

March 1996 and earlier had a different motherboard (20 pin cd-rom to motherboard interface cable) than April 1996.
April 1996 systems are all oval button with 21 pin cd-rom to motherboard interface cables.
May 1996 through i believe July 1996 all had very similar hardware to each other, particularly round buttons, 21 pin cd-rom/motherboard interface cables, and a 64 pin chip on the cd-rom drive where you would hook up the modboard to. They were completely different motherboards from the April 1996 systems
August 1996 until december 1996 had similar motherboards to the may-july series (though i never looked close enough to say that they were exactly the same), but instead of 64 pin cd-rom drive chips, they had 32 pin cd-rom drive chips.
January 1997 had a sanyo cd-rom drive.

This has been pretty much consistent with every US saturn i've ever touched. Yes, someone could do a case swap and throw that whole thing off, but i'm fairly confident in the data i gathered.

The point of the identical argument is simple: Something isn't identical if there are changes. I never asked for identical. Druid repeatedly stated that certain motherboards from round button systems were identical to certain motherboards from oval systems, EXCEPT for some missing resistors, a memory clear button, and an LED. I argued back that the definition of identical doesn't allow for those differences. He continued to argue his point, but he was wrong. I even mentioned that i wanted no discernible differences, not identical. But whatever....if you guys just read and answered the original question instead of trying to impress with your knowledge, none of this would have happened. How is it that Lum is the only person thus far to completely understand what i was asking? Is there something wrong with my use of the english language?

 

At times lack of technical knowledge is a good thing. It helps one not overthink questions like this.

 

Okay, we get it, you are right, everyone else is wrong, and we are dicks if we point out otherwise. geez.

Found these on ebay after a quick check, these should be similar to what you need (probably not atom-to-atom identical mind you):

va2
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sega-Satu...=item48615b5b27&ssPageName=RSS:B:STORE:GB:101
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sega-Saturn...=item4d199074d1&ssPageName=RSS:B:STORE:US:101
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Saturn-Valu...=item4d197b8c07&ssPageName=RSS:B:STORE:US:101

va3
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sega-Saturn...0869541282?pt=Video_Games&hash=item486144c1a2

v-saturns:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/V-SATURN-CO...051?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5405125f8b
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Victor-V-Sa...866?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e6ced462

Hi-saturns:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HITACHI-SAT...-/390773636616?pt=Console&hash=item5afbec7e08
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sega-Hitach...1268638056?pt=Video_Games&hash=item3cd4d30968

Also I have a VA2 hst-3210 I could add a modchip & regionfree bios to and sell it to you. But I need a week or two for a replacement power supply to arrive (some retarded plugged it into 220v and it fried, I dunno how to fix that, it auto blows the fuse now even with 110v so something is fried for sure - the machine works fine with a spare 220v power supply though, so the internals are not damaged).

 

I have the countries listed here:
http://evilboris.sonic-cult.net/saturn/index.php?&type=USA
April 1996 USA Saturn is most likely a VA2 based on my data.
But, as they were running multiple separate plants producing different versions (to use up stock presumably), the manufacturing dates won't give you exact VA numbers. There are just always exceptions. Some machines made in 1996 July have a VA8 board inside but one made in 1996 October may have a VA6, etc... It's not really reliable, if you want to know the hardware inside, the serial number tells a lot more.

By the way, the exact assembly date is printed on the motherboards, to the day. On late 1998 machines you have most if not all parts having 1997 dates but a 1998 assembly. They were winding down production by then, obviously.

 

Now this was incredibly helpful. Let me make sure i've got this right:

So, on HiSaturns, BC52 and B62 are the starting points.
For VSaturns, the ones i'd need appear to start with 160
On Grey saturns, as you mentioned, i've got a wide range of serials to look for, starting with 6620, B520, and B52 for va2 systems, and 0630 for va3. The only difference between these va2 and va3 boards is the use of SD ram vs SG ram, so for my purposes these board should have no discernible differences and the parts of the cases and motherboards should be 100% interchangeable with the us system i have, assuming i can provide some numbers for you to verify this.

this helps a lot and narrows my search down considerably. Thank you, druid.

I will gather my saturns today and take photos of everything i have, if you're interested in seeing them. Many of my systems have been torn apart waiting for me to find new cases for a VERY long time however, so i truly don't know that the serial number will be correct with the boards i've placed into those cases, for varying reasons.

i might be interested in that system you've got depending on price and cost of shipping.

 

You should break down the serials. I already posted the syntax (it has been figured out since ages by multiple people):

So,
BC52* = manufacturer BC, made in 1995, VA2
B62 = manufacturer B, made in 1996, VA2
662 = manufacturer 6, made in 1996, VA2
063 = manufacturer 0, made in 1996, VA3
AC795 = manufacturer code AC, made in 1997, refurbished unit, VA5

etc.

You could also use my online serial list and narrow the search down to hardware revision, it will then list all serials in the database which are VA x models (x being what you selected). You can work out what they start with that way. Like so:
http://evilboris.sonic-cult.net/saturn/index.php?&s3=2&sortby=hw_date

This syntax is used on practically everything between the Megadrive and Dreamcast (Megadrive handles the board revisions loosely, and the DC shifted to a new scheme). Including Hi-saturns.

The number syntax is totally different for V-Saturn though, they use a JVC numbering scheme. I believe RG-JX1(Y) machines are va2/3. RG-JX1 is VA0, and RG-JX1(X) is VA1.

I am interested, but only if you can do high res galleries with everything visible, and that takes a lot of effort depending on your camera. I'm making a list of stuff like IC numbers in each model; which means taking tons of photos. Retrojunkie's galleries are the closest to what I'm doing: https://picasaweb.google.com/101985214970836533590 (check the Saturns).
I'm not forcing that stuff on anyone until I have something worthwile online that people can contribute to.

However if I can ask you to take internal pictures of a machine, that would be that Navi Saturn.

If you want to pair your machines with the correct cases, they should have the manufacturer codes and timestamps printed on them. You can use that to identify at least the case bottoms.